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Thread: Carry enough gun or just carry a gun?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    I've never looked back on any violent encounter and wished I had a smaller gun.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    BS you can't dress around a gun. You can choose not, but you can. If your particular style is more important to you than carrying a gun, especially as an LEO, especially as an LEO with a physical disadvantage in terms of size and strength vs most of your mopes, then the best answer isn't taking a .25 into a gun fight, it's modifying how you dress or what you carry enough to actually carry a gun.
    I agree anyone can dress around a gun. I've dressed around fullsize Glocks and Colt Governments for years. In a perfect world everyone would dress around full size guns. The reality is that many are too lazy or vain to do so. That is the key to what I'm saying: perfect world vs reality.

    Does every person at your agency carry a full size gun on their person all the time? Most likely not. Most cops do not.

    What I'm floating here is that we trash talk small caliber guns like 25 and 32 ACP because we consider them too small and too ineffective (which compared to their larger brethren they are).

    Would it be better for all the people at your department that do not carry a gun off duty at all to have one of those over nothing? I think most of us (barring the guy is a complete moron and shouldn't be working there anyway) would say, "YES!"

    Reflecting back upon the incident that was the catalyst for me to the write this, I would rather have had the young lady carrying her issued M&P or at the very least her Shield in an IWB holster. I can't force her to though. I can't force her to completely change her wardrobe, although I can encourage her. The reality is that she will not.

    Would I rather have had her armed with a 25 or 32 ACP (such as a Seecamp or Keltec) that she can shoot well rather than nothing at all? You bet!

    That's is the point I'm making: People look to people they trust regarding "gun stuff" and we tell them not to bother with smaller calibers. We are sometimes unrealistic about what they will and will not do (such as alter wardrobe/lifestyle). Perhaps it's time to abandon that mindset.

    I think having a gun, even if the caliber sucks, is better than having no gun as an option at all.

  3. #13
    So question for other civilian ccw's, do you value concealment over gun size? I know I do but that may because I try to maintain a low profile and not draw attention to myself. I have a buddy, in contrast, that cares way less about printing than I do. With my son climbing all over me in public, it is hard to conceal something like a g19 and maintain the level of concealment I am comfortable with. I also dress around the gun, its just that my son grabs and pulls my shirt so my large shirt all of a sudden becomes a baby gap medium for a moment.

  4. #14
    Kev, I liked your post although some parts of it almost imply a randomness of an outcome of a GSW irrespective of a projectile. While I've seen some incredible stuff too and the Jr. has just held an aorta with his hands for 4 hours allowing a dude with total of 16L of volume loss to live another day, I think that there is a bit more predictability in outcomes with 7.62 vs .22 hits than some might see in your post.


    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    BS you can't dress around a gun. You can choose not, but you can.
    I presume that your statement is not all inclusive and implies general everyday clothing (or is it LEO only?) because I can point out a set of specific, and perhaps not too uncommon. circumstances when you can't dress around the gun. I live those circumstances almost daily these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    So question for other civilian ccw's, do you value concealment over gun size?
    Let's put it in a completely abstract terms, but suppose you're a bread winner and your family's daily survival, meaning roof over the heads, heat, sanitation, food, medical insurance are solely on you, and you work in a "gun free zone" environment, what would be a priority, concealment or size?
    Last edited by YVK; 07-31-2017 at 10:48 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post

    I presume that your statement is not all inclusive and implies general everyday clothing (or is it LEO only?) because I can point out a set of specific, and perhaps not too uncommon. circumstances when you can't dress around the gun. I live those circumstances almost daily these days.
    I'd say dress around the biggest gun you can. I agree, and there are times I'm carrying a G26 instead of a G17or G19 mostly due to dress. It's pretty hard to imagine not being able to dress around a G26, G43, 642, etc.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Kev, I liked your post although some parts of it almost imply a randomness of an outcome of a GSW irrespective of a projectile. While I've seen some incredible stuff too and the Jr. has just held an aorta with his hands for 4 hours allowing a dude with total of 16L of volume loss to live another day, I think that there is a bit more predictability in outcomes with 7.62 vs .22 hits than some might see in your post.




    I presume that your statement is not all inclusive and implies general everyday clothing (or is it LEO only?) because I can point out a set of specific, and perhaps not too uncommon. circumstances when you can't dress around the gun. I live those circumstances almost daily these days.



    Let's put it in a completely abstract terms, but suppose you're a bread winner and your family's daily survival, meaning roof over the heads, heat, sanitation, food, medical insurance are solely on you, and you work in a "gun free zone" environment, what would be a priority, concealment or size?
    Concealment hands down. I pretty much hold myself to that standard in public also. Before my son I could easily get away with a g19 no matter what, right now I am not certain I can. Once the g43 gadget comes out, my shield will be replaced with it and I'll be pretty comfortable with a g43 for the times that the g19 won't work.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    So question for other civilian ccw's, do you value concealment over gun size? I know I do but that may because I try to maintain a low profile and not draw attention to myself. I have a buddy, in contrast, that cares way less about printing than I do. With my son climbing all over me in public, it is hard to conceal something like a g19 and maintain the level of concealment I am comfortable with. I also dress around the gun, its just that my son grabs and pulls my shirt so my large shirt all of a sudden becomes a baby gap medium for a moment.
    I'm spending a lot of time now in some less gun friendly states like RI, MA and CT. I pay a lot more attention to not printing that I do when I'm back in LA. For me, the length of the butt difference between a G26 and G19/17 can matter depending on how you dress.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by LSP552 View Post
    I'm spending a lot of time now in some less gun friendly states like RI, MA and CT. I pay a lot more attention to not printing that I do when I'm back in LA. For me, the length of the butt difference between a G26 and G19/17 can matter depending on how you dress.
    Same here, my chest drapes my shirts enough that double stack (usually) is not a huge issue. Length of grip tends to matter more and more though. Honestly, I don't at a disadvantage with the shield and a reload.. super easy to carry and gives me the equivalent amount of ammo a g19 has..
    Last edited by breakingtime91; 07-31-2017 at 11:00 PM.

  9. #19
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Kev, I liked your post although some parts of it almost imply a randomness of an outcome of a GSW irrespective of a projectile. While I've seen some incredible stuff too and the Jr. has just held an aorta with his hands for 4 hours allowing a dude with total of 16L of volume loss to live another day, I think that there is a bit more predictability in outcomes with 7.62 vs .22 hits than some might see in your post.
    For the most part, based upon my observations, as well as observations of other relayed to me, any bullet (or crossbow bolt, arrow, ice pick or foreign object for that matter) that hits the right portion of the brain or spinal cord will most likely be lethal or cause paralysis. The key is getting it there and past all the other stuff a person wears or comprises their body. Outside of that you are making holes to cause eventual blood loss to the brain or bones and muscle that support. Some bullets do this with more force or efficiency than others. Yes, as a rule, most rifle rounds (and shotgun slugs and buckshot) are more effective than pistol rounds...and the larger and heavier the pistol round at any given velocity the better. With that being said, if you shoot a guy full of holes with an SKS on a Saturday night and don't hit anything vital he may survive. Then again a well placed shot with an Ruger MkII may instantly turn the lights out.

    After my conversation with the guy that put a 38 Special round through his skull (contact...and the medical examiner said "non-survivable), I came to accept that bullets and what they do can be very unpredictable. There are variables.
    Last edited by KevH; 07-31-2017 at 11:03 PM.

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevH View Post
    As gun “aficionados” I think we tend to sometimes overthink our carry choices or at least look down upon those that make “lesser” decisions when it comes to what gun a person decides to carry on daily basis. Terms like “mouse gun” as well as “ineffective” and “weak” get thrown around. Some things got me thinking…

    I’ve had the ability due to my work to see all sorts of people shot, stabbed, and bludgeoned with all sorts of different things in all sorts of manners in the past fifteen plus years. I’ve seen it real time, right after, and when they’re being cut up on the medical examiner’s table later on. What I’ve learned is that thanks to Hollywood, gel tests, the internet, and books we have very unrealistic expectations of what bullets, knives, and fists do and don’t do.

    I’ve seen guys take multiple 7.62x39mm rounds in the torso and walk around fairly unaffected, one-shot stops with 22 LR from a pistol at distance, a guy who shot himself in the head with a 38 Special and then was able to tell me why he did it for 20 minutes before he died, and a guy that was stabbed nine times in the back with a Ka-Bar (and I’m talking deep stab wounds) walk himself into the hospital and completely recover. I won’t bore you with more, but if I counted I’m well into the hundreds of people shot/stabbed/bludgeoned/run over and the one thing that holds true for each one is that each one is completely unique. You cannot predict what force upon the human body (or animal) will do in the real world with all the different variables that may or may not be present, you can only do your best to control the variables you can.

    I’ve carried lots of different guns concealed over the years. When I was a freshly minted policeman right out of the academy I would never consider leaving the house without a Glock 22 or at least a Glock 27 and extra mag at bare minimum. Somehow that changed as time went on to a S&W 442 in a pocket or ankle rig with a speed strip or two. Priorities change, as does fashion, our bodies, and for whatever reason sometimes as we age we get lazier with what we carry or at least we reprioritize. Where we go and what we “plan” on encountering sometimes affects what we carry, but the rule of thumb is at a bare minimum you should have some type of firearm if you legally can.

    I’ve seen recently the argument on here that you need enough gun to take on multiple suspects such as during a terrorist attacks. Personally, if I could, I would have a rifle or shotgun on my person at all times, but the reality is that I cannot logistically do that. Yes, I know the quips from Jeff Cooper and Clint Smith about caliber and size, but realistically most people don’t wear 5.11 pants everywhere they go and dress around the gun they carry all the time. We often find ourselves at formal functions, our kids’ games, the neighbor’s house for an evening beer, out mowing the lawn, and a myriad of other places where carrying around larger guns becomes difficult. Many people just leave the Glock 19 or (insert other pistol here) home “for just this one time” and go unstrapped.

    I bring all this up because of a rookie female cop I think of as a little sister. She’s small, I mean a very tiny girl, and bought a S&W Shield as her “off-duty” gun (she carries an M&P in uniform). Not a bad choice. But she is so small (5’3” under 100 lbs…and of course stylishly dressed with tight jeans and shirt) that she can’t carry it on her person, so it lives in a purse (the Shield looks almost full size when she holds it). She recounted to me the other day about running into a store “really quick” when she was off-duty. No purse, so no gun. Of course, as luck would have it, a parole she had arrested a few weeks prior was in the store. The interaction went fine, but all the “what if’s” started to happen.

    I asked this young lady why she doesn’t just buy a smaller gun she can keep on her person all the time. She told me that she had tried shooting a Ruger LCP and found it to “too hard to shoot” (recoil). I suggested a 25 ACP or 32 ACP and she groaned and started to recount the “mouse gun” stories like we have all heard in the past. I then asked, “Would you have felt better with any gun than no gun?” The response was, “Well, yeah.” There you have it.

    We look down on little guns like Beretta Jetfires, Keltec P32’s and the like because there are better options. But the reality is that having an option is better than no option at all. A Baby Browning 25 ACP has proven for over a century to be extremely reliable, easy to shoot, and small enough to literally go anywhere…even on a small lady’s person. We just think less of the round it fires. Thousands upon thousands of people have died though due to that diminutive caliber, and many lives have been saved because of it. In fact, I think I may have to pick one up to let my little sister try out…
    For this petite officer, two things come to mind: Belt pouch holster, and G42. Tex Shoemaker used to make leather belt pouches, somewhat like squared-off handcuff cases, that exactly accommodated the AMT Back-Up, and would accept some other decent small pistols. The Safepacker, from The Wilderness, is nylon, and is in production, in sizes down to Colt Mustang.he Safepacker can be worn on a belt, slung by a strap, or hand-carried like a clutch purse.

    Plenty of people have posted that the G42 is a gentle-recoiling .380 pistol, much more comfortable than the various Kel-tec-ish beasties. (The similar Ruger is in this group of beasties.) For reference, I helped my wife run break-in/function-test rounds through her Kel-tec 32, during which time we both grew to hate the thing; it squirmed during the trigger stroke, shifted position during recoil, and, after a number of shots, hurt. It has sat on a shelf, unused, for years now. Thinking the P3AT's grip frame was wider, I bought one, sight unseen, when they were difficult to find, only to find it was the same size, so I sold it, unfired. Our Seecamp LWS-32 pistols are gentle, in comparison, but I m not so sure about depending upon a sightless pistol, beyond nasal-spray range, especially as it points low in my hands.

    For my use, well, a PPK/s or J-snub would be my idea of minimally OK, for sighted fire. A PPK is beyond the point of diminishing returns, being too punishing to use for training, at least when chambered for .380 ACP. It is not that .380 in a PPK kicks too hard, but that slide bite starts immediately, whereas the PPK/s bites me less, plus, the PPK/s has a larger gripping area, so remains stable during the trigger stroke, whereas the PPK wants to squirm during the DA pull.

    I have made enough shooting calls to know that .380 ACP can be quite effective, at least at close range, with face-to-face opponents. Obviously, obese or muscular opponents would likely require face shots, so anyone depending upon tiny guns.

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