Carry enough gun or just carry a gun?

[Ed L]

I've had good luck with 2 different PM-9s that were manufactured 14 years apart. One of these guns I ran through part of a handgun class.

I have heard differing things about PM-9s over the years but I don't know anyone personally who has had a bad one or had an experience in having to send one back and go through all of that headache.

I am glad that I do not have a lathe at home, because I have had bad experiences with certain guns that would have resulted in my slicing them up.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm solidly of the opinion that if one's threat profile includes the possibility of targeted violence, (particularly of the sort cops are vulnerable to, like running in to bad actors you've bagged or their bad actor buddies/familia) that one is foolish or deluded to carry less than a compact version of a service gun. The list BBIs agency provides, and encourages, seems well considered.

I carry a service sized, 15+1 round pistol roughly 80% of the time because I have a family and I can. I might carry it a little less if I didn't have those concerns, because I have a low threat profile, but I would still carry it more often than not. Otherwise it is a single stack 9mm with a reload or a model 36 with a strip and a loader. Sometimes 2 of those options together.

Again, I do not have the threats to consider that a LEO or official like a judge or DA might. I just accept that bad shit happens sometimes, and I'd rather be overprepared than un-prepared.

That's a long-winded way of me saying that if you have a reasonable chance to have to fight, you should always have a gun that is suited to serious fighting.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I came across two links that compared and test small guns vs. full sized.

Interesting reads as to the performance deficits and good points about the need to achieve competency with the smaller guns and problems with that.

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/231929

http://blog.krtraining.com/defensive...s-7292017-aar/

I note that since I sometimes carry a smaller one due to dress concerns or sloth - I've taken the time to train with snubbies and shot a snubby or G42 in IDPA or specific close range matches.

Here's my experience AAR.

http://blog.krtraining.com/186-2/

I also posted that AAR here but put in this link for convenience.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I note that since I sometimes carry a smaller one due to dress concerns or sloth - I've taken the time to train with snubbies and shot a snubby or G42 in IDPA or specific close range matches.

That's it right there, Glenn. If you don't have to worry about herding others to safety or targeted violence, some training on a small gun is a reasonable choice. I love getting out and working the snub, because it is challenging. I'm still garbage with it WHO beyond 5yds, though. I just do better with a bigger gun for my off-hand.

[Bucky]

From BBI:
"Our department policy sets the floor at .380 for anything you can qualify with for backup/off duty use. To suggest that caliber is irrelevant and shot placement is all that matters is ignoring how easy the mouse guns deflect, how little they penetrate, and how even with shot placement that would have let a duty caliber do it's job the mouse gun may fail. They will qualify you on a G42/43, but you will be told it's not a fighting handgun and that a Glock 26/27 is the recommended floor for off duty carry. They recognize the reality that not everyone will carry a double stack, but does not pretend all guns are equal to spare your feelings or to allow you a false sense of confidence."

This mirrors my job's rules and approach to "encouraging" strong off duty carry choices. While I can't say that there are more G26 carried off-duty than G43/9mm Shields, there is more off-duty carry as a whole. Those who carry a small single stack 9 are carrying at least one reload too. A small step toward an overall win.

I don't find the 26 to have much advantage to the 43 other than capacity. I can shoot my 43 just as well, and as fast. (I do shoot my 43 a bit.) Of course, capacity can be a big advantage. I've also found, in my particular circumstances, a 19 or similar is not that much harder to conceal. For just having a one gun solution, the 26 has a lot going for it. I prefer a 19 (or 92C) / G43 solution, whee the 43 is only used when circumstances dictate.

[lwt16]

My wife drug me along with her on a neighborhood walk last night. I have enough trouble keeping up with her as it is.....so any extra weight in the form of pistolas has to be manageable in that realm as well as concealment under shorts and tee shirt garb.

Packed my two G42s (both with Magguts equipped magazines full of Gold Dot .380s) giving me two 8 shot mouse guns tucked into my Galco bellyband. I felt as that was plenty for a casual walk in my neighborhood.

For me, it's all about the trip I'm about to take. Late night run to Walmart is going to require a full sized fighting handgun. Stroll in the hood...not so much.

[lwt16]

Deleted....double tap, for some reason.

[BillSWPA]

I am curious about how many people advocating minimum size and caliber standards have spent extensive time carrying guns in true non-permissive environments. For example, a workplace, where you spend 50+ hours a week around the same people, where the ladies are likely to notice anything out of place, and will gossip about it and try to figure out why it is out of place, and where getting caught could result in multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars of economic consequences, even if carry is legal. I have carried a gun daily under such circumstances for a period of many years.

Is your chosen gun going to be compatible with all temperatures and dress codes you may encounter? Are you going to be forced to look weird by leaving your concealment garment on when it is hot and you are obviously sweating?

If you are depending on a suit jacket to hide your gun, what happens when your supervisor orders you to remove the suit jacket for a particular client meeting?

Is your gun going to be eye-level with someone sitting at a desk by which you are standing?

Is the gun going to print when you bend at the waist when sitting, standing, bending over, etc?

Is your pants leg going to rise up and expose your ankle holster when you sit?

If you have to go someplace where the gun is illegal, do you have a way to secure the gun, and to transfer it to/from your person without getting caught? Keep in mind that the more time the transfer takes, the higher the risk of getting caught.

Do you have a way to use the restroom with no change of anyone seeing the gun, keeping in mind that privacy in a stall is never perfect?

While a 1% chance of getting caught is acceptable a the local shopping mall with a "no guns" sign (assuming that in your state you are not legally obligated to obey the sign), in the circumstances I describe, if that one out of place detail is noticed by the office ladies, that 1% chance will become 5%, then 10%, and eventually you are busted. At that point, which gun you carry may be a moot point as you sell off your collection to pay bills.

While some may consider this a special circumstance, when we consider the amount of time spent at work, the mousegun quickly becomes the most commonly carried gun. This is why, in the early 2000's when North American Arms made some of the best options, for this type of carry, their discussion forum was populated by well paid professionals as well as police officers.

Currently, I am self-employed, and get to carry what I want. Even now, a tiny .380 has an important rule, for example, meeting with a client with a good potential for repeat business and unknown views about carrying guns.

Turning to my family, if I had focused a lot less on minimum caliber requirements and a lot more on comfort while shooting and comfort while carrying, my wife might at least be carrying my Kel-Tec P-32 on a daily basis. Currently, I am lucky if her pepper spray isn't at the bottom of her purse.

The small guns might not be my first choice when I can carry something bigger, but they have a very important place. If you are serious about being armed 24/7/365. you need to own at least one.

[EM_]

BS you can't dress around a gun. You can choose not, but you can. If your particular style is more important to you than carrying a gun, especially as an LEO, especially as an LEO with a physical disadvantage in terms of size and strength vs most of your mopes, then the best answer isn't taking a .25 into a gun fight, it's modifying how you dress or what you carry enough to actually carry a gun.

The fact you're a cop means you can be targeted for work reasons, and that doesn't end when you log off for the day. I've had death threats over job related issues at least three times, once with a bounty.
I can't for the life of me grasp LEOs walking around in their own area where they can be recognized by people they've arrested, family members, etc. unarmed or with a mouse gun. If you're just concerned with random violence, the person who's more interested in surviving to get the next guy's wallet and will bounce when you present a threat, then you're mouse gun is probably better than no gun. Targeted violence where they are emotionally invested in killing you? Then it's time to carry more gun.

All of this. While I get all of the NPE discussions from people about their jobs, the financial stakes, etc., the scenario from the OP was not that. The off-duty cop has no such NPE concerns and if the threat they *believe* they're going to face is an angry, job-related confrontation, then the normal CCW armed robber type threats are not going to be their problem.

So many *typical* CCW robbery attempts are stopped with psychological stops, the dude targeting you for being a cop is not going to end with a psychological stop.

Making the choice to dress around the gun is the correct decision here. I'm also of the opinion if they won't carry a G43 they aren't going to bother with a Bobcat. I base this on recommending smaller guns to fellow officers who just swore they couldn't carry a larger gun off duty only to find out they rarely carry those either.

[Duelist]

All of this. While I get all of the NPE discussions from people about their jobs, the financial stakes, etc., the scenario from the OP was not that. The off-duty cop has no such NPE concerns and if the threat they *believe* they're going to face is an angry, job-related confrontation, then the normal CCW armed robber type threats are not going to be their problem.

So many *typical* CCW robbery attempts are stopped with psychological stops, the dude targeting you for being a cop is not going to end with a psychological stop.

Making the choice to dress around the gun is the correct decision here. I'm also of the opinion if they won't carry a G43 they aren't going to bother with a Bobcat. I base this on recommending smaller guns to fellow officers who just swore they couldn't carry a larger gun off duty only to find out they rarely carry those either.

And all of that. A cop is a cop, on duty or not. I can't understand a cop not carrying a real gun, 24/7/365.

A not-cop is not a cop. And if a not-cop works in places like I do, carrying against employer policy is scary financially. Carrying against legal restriction is a crime, even though it "shouldn't" be. I could carry here, in violation of policy and law. I could get away with it, if I used a small gun. If I carried my P32, I'd probably get away with it forever.

Probably.

But I don't.