Carry enough gun or just carry a gun?

[s0nspark]

It has always amazed me that half of cops don't carry off duty, and that's probably a generous figure.

Well, it's not like work problems can follow them home... ;-/

Seriously, one of my friends is a long time LEO and he didn't start carrying off duty with any consistency until recently. I guess he finally "got" all that stuff I've been saying for years... LOL

Now I just need to get him to carry on body, in a good holster, ALL the time. No, I'm not kidding.

[s0nspark]

We know that BGs can't shoot and will always flee at the sight of Bermuda Shorts Big Belly and his Taurus 85.

Hey, I think I know that guy...

[JustOneGun]

Well, I touched on it in these post


The direct answer would be because the psychology of the assaulter during that particular circumstance will wildly change how relevant terminal performance is to a safe ending. A criminal who engages in panicked flight from a miss is just as much an ended threat to the individual (but not the community) as the dead one. That's the slightly more fleshed out version of the first post. I already hear the objection we shouldn't count on a psychological stop, and I agree, but we also can't count on a physical stop. As I'm sure you are aware, even most physical stops other than CNS hits are psychological stops first. A few folks continue to fight with a bullet through their heart, but not many, and not in many circumstances. To ignore the psychological stop is to ignore a pretty large chunk of gunfights and shootings in the real world. Which moves me to flesh out the second post a bit.

The murderous ex-husband in a jealous rage bent on murder-suicide is not nearly as likely to be psychologically stopped as the street robber who can simply pick a safer target to rob later in the same night. When someone attacks an LEO for being an LEO or who is cornered and trying to murder a LEO to enable a escape, it's much closer to that murderous ex-husband mentality than the random street robber mentality, even if it's the exact same person. There is emotion to the attack on LE, there is anger and/or hatred, they can "other" the cop easier because cops are the physical representation of "the man" who's to blame for all their ills, who's there to take their freedom and put them back in prison, the personification of the unjust society. The guy at the bus stop with an expensive cell phone in his hand is just an ATM, and he can hit the next one just as easily if this one is too dangerous. Two different ends of the spectrum, different levels of dedication to the assault, two different reactions to potential injury or real injury, two different outlooks on continued survival, etc.

All very good things to think about and to plan for during an encounter. One of the things I remind people is that one cannot plan for how the bad guy will think. To us, it's usually random. If you plan on a psychological stop and don't get it and have no plan to end the fight, then what? If you have a plan that includes ending the fight for someone who is bound and determined to kill you and then the person crumbles at the first sign of a gun or pain, then I'll take it.
The differences in those two plans is small, but the differences in outcomes can be living or dying.

[11B10]

A CHL instructor in TX quite a few years agos, said that the instructor organization did an informal survey and found 80% of CHLs didn't carry. They wanted the license to reduce hassles over the 'truck or car' gun. A useless concept if you aint' in the vehicle. I have quite few typical friends who don't carry and won't train but prattle on about guns and ammo and stopping power and .... blah, blah.

On another forum, the view of carrying a full sized or even reasonable compact gun (G26) was that it wasn't a good idea because:

1. If you can't do the job with one or two shots, you ain't doing your job and shouldn't be carrying a gun
2. If it is a true SHTF critical incident or one with multiple opponents, I'm incompetent and will die (usually described as if you are attacked by ninjas), so why carry more than the small gun you wave at the opponent and hope they run away. We know that BGs can't shoot and will always flee at the sight of Bermuda Shorts Big Belly and his Taurus 85.

Some truth - I sometimes do go out with a J frame and a speed loader due to dress or sloth. But then I feel guilty about it. At least, I've trained and practiced with them.

Glenn, I love your words here, especially the characterization of the gent in Bermuda shorts! Unfortunately, your words of the first paragraph also ring true - it's an issue that won't go away. The best part is your last sentence - it SHOULD energize ALL who have licenses to get going with their training, myself included.

[octagon]

What the 14 pages of this thread and really the entire defensive gun industry is based on is the individual's life risk assessment and cost/benefit the person consciously or unconsciously calculates. While some people will agree and others disagree with each persons choice it is just that. We in the prepared or process of preparing believe one way and those regular citizens and LEOs that choose not to carry a gun at all or not to train more than what they are required or paid to or not to carry when off duty or if they have a CC permit and can legally believe differently. Sometimes with respectful discussion,statistics or if the person has a close call or incident some may change their minds. Others won't.

Looking at it one way a person trying to decide if and what or when to carry could look at someone like me who spent 4 years in active duty military,an entire police career in a high crime metro area and lived for 47 years in the same metro area and could have done the same while never having to fire a single shot. Add in my parents,siblings and most of my extended family and friends who have done the same. Looking at this a person may say to themselves that there is no need to carry a gun at all. Or maybe they can get away with carrying a small gun or small caliber or when they believe they are at greater risk. Statistically they wouldn't be wrong. Every person knows that if they choose wrong or are one of the people that get robbed or become a target of violence may get hurt or killed. But they consider that risk with the issues of carrying a gun every day everywhere. How carrying a double stack mid sized service caliber gun so often recommended often means compromise to appearance,clothing,comfort,legal/moral repercussions etc..

Someone will likely post a trite expression like the juice is worth the squeeze or it is about the stakes not the odds. This isn't wrong either but it is a personal choice. Some of the same people who advocate for intense,regular training, carrying a double stack mid size service caliber gun,AIWB,at least 1 spare magazine,knife,handheld flashlight etc.. must ask if they do this everywhere all the time. No going out with a LCP or J frame to run a quick errand or let the dog out. No air travel but drive everywhere so they can carry the full load out. I won't even address the legal issues of no gun zones where there is criminal penalty. There are no absolutes and there is always risk. Respecting each persons choice in how they address the risk is all that can be done while trying to help those we care about or want to help.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Seriously, one of my friends is a long time LEO and he didn't start carrying off duty with any consistency until recently. I guess he finally "got" all that stuff I've been saying for years... LOL

Now I just need to get him to carry on body, in a good holster, ALL the time. No, I'm not kidding.

I know this guy. He is a Sergeant in a small, isolated, rural town with a disproportionately high crime rate, but it has taken years for him to consistently carry any sort of gun on his person when off duty. He is consistently a low-scoring shooter, but as far as I know the only two times he has shot outside of mandatory training or qualifications was with me. He also does not care for his equipment to the standard many of us would--there was one year where his gun was cleaned twice, and that was because I did it when he came to visit. However, I've been working with him on off-duty carry, starting with giving him a concealment holster for his issue G22 (which he started using...when he carried the holstered gun in a messenger bag), then working with him with the G27 a graduating academy class he instructed pooled their money to guy for him. Next step is getting him a quality IWB holster for it, which will probably mean giving him one of mine to replace the $15 neoprene clip on he has right now...

Respecting each persons choice in how they address the risk is all that can be done while trying to help those we care about or want to help.

I carry as much gun as I can get away with, which usually means a mid-size or full size pistol. If it's a NPE where I need to be discrete, it's my G26. In professional attire with tucked in shirts I'll go with my LCP (the gun I carry when I can't carry a gun). That being said, as I frequently tell people who ask me gun questions, "I'm really into this s**t." Not everyone we train/work with is going to have the same interest or buy a gun for every occasion or to dress around a gun, or whatever. As long as these people have an appropriate level of competence and proper mindset to carry a gun in the first place, I would rather steer them towards a quality gun that meets their needs and that they will maintain a base level of competency with (even if it's not the ideal gunfighting pistol) then try to force them into making changes they never will and losing them completely.

[gtae07]

And all of that. A cop is a cop, on duty or not. I can't understand a cop not carrying a real gun, 24/7/365.

A not-cop is not a cop. And if a not-cop works in places like I do, carrying against employer policy is scary financially. Carrying against legal restriction is a crime, even though it "shouldn't" be. I could carry here, in violation of policy and law. I could get away with it, if I used a small gun. If I carried my P32, I'd probably get away with it forever.

Probably.

But I don't.

I work in an environment like that. Technically, I wouldn't be violating a law, but if I carried here and were caught, that would end my career right there. I'd never find another job in my field. And that's just the start of the troubles.

Outside of work, though, there are very few legal "no gun zones" I have to go to. Yeah, I have a pocket .380 for other NPEs and times when I'm out in gym shorts (e.g. mid-project Lowes runs, running for exercise, etc). The theory is "better a gun than no gun at all, but carry the biggest I reasonably can". I also practice as best I can manage with the time and money I have available.

Yeah, it would be great if I could shoot 100 rounds several times a week and go to multiple training classes a year, but for me (and the vast majority of other people) that's just not possible.


Now, the most immediate issue I have is renewing my carry license--it expires today, I have a temporary extension good until 9/3, and I'll be out of the country for a bit after that. But seriously, renewing shouldn't take 11 weeks plus (I applied June 5). Our county has a "backlog" so despite a statutory mandate of 10 days for the background check and 20 for issuing, I'm still waiting

[Velo Dog]

Google "gun found in purse". I am aware of two cases locally where someone was fired for concealed carry at their place of employment. Both were women caught with a pistol in their purse.

Mouse guns and off-body carry may have their time and place, but be realistic and be responsible.

[Mike C]

Google "gun found in purse". I am aware of two cases locally where someone was fired for concealed carry at their place of employment. Both were women caught with a pistol in their purse.

Mouse guns and off-body carry may have their time and place, but be realistic and be responsible.

Or... kid who shot mom from gun in her purse, (happened not too long ago as I recall). I think it does have a time and place above all I absolutely agree with you about being, "realistic and responsible" in regards to carrying that way.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm noting a lot of dudes in this thread, and more than a few I know to be full sized dudes, and a dearth of ladies posting.

Many chicks, I'll include my oldest daughter and a cop friend in the KCMO area, like to dress like chicks and not little dudes wearing the 5.11 catalog. I get it. Many dudes working in a true NPE while wearing business clothes will find themselves in a similar situation as far as gun size vs concealing the gun. Craig's TPI site has an epic thread on this subject, with worthy comments from folks like Claude Werner and some of the ladies on that forum.

Anyway, both my daughter and friend ended up with LCP sized guns backed up by small folders. Cop chick friend uses her FlashBang bra holster almost daily while off duty. She is not a top heavy gal and yet the gun is still undetectable. A P32 would serve the same purpose and have less recoil.

Personally, I'd prefer a good person have a .22 or .25 and some smarts than just smarts.

Ref ".25acp ammo": in my observation it depends on the ammo. I've crono'd .25acp from a Beretta at anywhere from the low 600fps range to the high 900fps range. That makes a substantial difference IMHO. I've seen some of the ".25 don't work" cases on the street, but I've seen more than a few where it did work, shockingly well. I recall one case where a head shot was a through-and-through, another where a cross torso below the diaphragm hit killed dude dead very quickly.

In screwing around at the range and shooting the brand new 55gal steel drum that was going to be used for a burn barrel, I noted the slow .25 rounds would bounce off the side and hit me in the shins, the fast .25 rounds, and .22s such as the Stinger or Velocity from a snubby, would punch both sides of the drum. That's not Doc Roberts level of testing, but methinks that level of performance will make a difference when you have to shoot a bad guy in the head.