P320 drop safety issues

[John Hearne]

I'm deeply skeptical about the claims that have been circulated as they would require multiple failures of really simple systems in an unmodified pistol that was assembled to factory standards.

For the gun to discharge when dropped two distinct actions would have to occur. First, the sear would have to drop enough to allow the striker to move forward. The sear is kept up by not one but two springs. Second, the "firing pin lock" would have to be disengaged and allow the striker to move forward of the breech face. The firing pin's forward movement in the P320 is arrested just like it is in the classic series. There is a safety lever that sits next to the sear. This safety lever is spring loaded to remain in "locked" position and only rearward movement of the trigger will allow the lever to raise and disengage the lock on the striker.

If someone deliberately removed components or the factory forgot to install certain components then I could see a few freak circumstances causing problems. If you get into the sear assembly, there are a number of tiny springs. If you told me that someone forgot to include the spring that retracts the striker during assembly then I could see potential problems. If you told me that some hack home gunsmith removed one of the springs that supports the sear, I'd believe that problems with a dropped gun would occur. Even in these obscure possibilities, there is still a requirement of enough energy so separate the sear from the striker which I have a very hard time seeing.

Please treat what follows as utter innuendo and rumor with no basis in fact:
There has been ONE document instance of a P320 firing when dropped. This occurred in a pistol that was actually in a holster on a loaded duty belt. This incident is still being investigated and everyone involved is really baffled. The jury is still out. The speculation is that perhaps the total mass of the loaded duty belt added enough energy to exceed the SAAMI drop specs but that is just speculation.

Regarding Dallas, the issue may be that the gun discharges if it is bumped when a finger is on the trigger. This kinda makes sense since loading the trigger might raise the safety lever enough to allow the striker to move freely. The problem then becomes, how do you isolate a blow that releases the sear from a blow that moves the loaded trigger back due to impact forces - if there's a round in the chamber and you press the trigger, the gun supposed to go "bang."

A guy I know may have conducted an experiment with a series of primed cases. The first iteration involved manually loading the trigger to the wall and then hitting the gun with a rubber mallet. The striker fell and popped the primer because the blow caused the trigger finger to move backwards. The next iteration may have involved an attempt to load and keep the trigger loaded with paracord. The gun eventually discharged but the discharge was plainly the result of rearward movement of the trigger as the operator worked to keep the trigger loaded. The final iteration involved the use of a bungee cord secured on both ends to load the trigger. The was struck with a hammer numerous times and absolutely nothing happened. Again, any test in which the trigger is loaded strikes me as specious since you are deliberately deactivating the intrinsic internal safeties and it is almost impossible to tell what is the result of mechanical failure and inadvertent movement of the trigger from impact.

Finally, Sig does not believe that there is anything inherently wrong with the design and is not moving forward with any "fixes" until a clear problem has been identified.

[Tango]

So the Germans make guns that go bang when I don't want them to and the Austrian guns come apart when I take them out of the holster.

Paging Mr. Browning!!!!!

Glock has supposedly fixed the M flaws, now it's SIGs turn.

[HCM]

So the Germans make guns that go bang when I don't want them to and the Austrian guns come apart when I take them out of the holster.

Paging Mr. Browning!!!!!

Glock has supposedly fixed the M flaws, now it's SIGs turn.

Not many Germans in NH - the P320 was an American project.

Glock fixed the flaw in the M series identified by IMPD. How sure are you Glock has fixed all the flaws in the M series ?

[GJM]

TFB, just now:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...till-repaired/

[breakingtime91]

TFB, just now:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...till-repaired/

who could of seen this coming!

[Drang]

TFB, just now:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...till-repaired/

Dallas Police Department was asked for comment as well and shared what information they had at the time. Public Information Officer Melinda Gutierrez of the Dallas Police Department issued the statement below.

The Dallas Police Department still issues the Sig Sauer P226 handgun, but did authorize officers to purchase the Sig Sauer P320 handgun for duty use. We have not currently had any issues with the Sig Sauer P320 handgun. The use of the Sig Sauer P320 handgun has been temporarily suspended due to safety precautions.

[Default.mp3]

Reality and facts matter.

Full disclosure: Grayguns has developed patent-pending fire control parts for the P320, to enhance these actions for competition and elite users while maintaining full mechanical safety values. Some of this work was done in cooperation with SIG SAUER, and much independently.

I can state with assurance that I may be considered a SME on this platform.

I speak only for myself here:

We have dropped, thrown and banged on P320's for three years, working on our long-term and very in-depth R&D project. Some of our attempts well exceeded accepted specifications for such drop and jar tests. I include throwing a P320 against our shop wall in that category.

I've never experienced an instance in which an example with intact striker lock and reasonable sear and springing values would fire when dropped, much less a proper factory-spec gun.

I have quietly searched for and looked into online reports of any claimed malfunctions or safety issues, including drop-safety failures.

In three years, have yet to verify a single proven instance in which a proper, factory-spec P320 has fired when dropped.

Individual pistols and parts can break, of course. Were that to happen, SIG SAUER will correct it and revise any component which may benefit from it, as has already been the case with the extractor, for example. This is absolutely to be expected from the world's premier gunmaker.

But that's not the issue. Because there isn't one, in my informed opinion.

However, every bit of my 43 years of gunsmithing and design experience, and my special knowledge of this platform, have convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that the P320 has no inherent flaw or fault whatsoever in it's safety systems or fire control mechanism.

I've read the memo, followed discussions, communicated with some of the personalities involved and chatted online with one of the authors of a recent blog on the DPD's decision.

I am here to tell you that there is nothing there to justify pulling the P320 from duty.

Nothing at all, as far as I am able to see. And believe me, I have skin in the game, and I am looking.

I fully expect this decision to be rescinded shortly once the light of day and sensibility are brought to bear. What SIG might due in response to the rumourmongering which passes as online journalism these days is not for me to speculate upon.

In fact, speculating about these things at all seems bad form. For my part, I can and will back my statements.

-Bruce

Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSPr...6029197110242/

[modrecoil]

Good enough for me. Gonna go dry fire my P320c and go to bed. And if I'm wrong, maybe Tom won't boot me from this month's Rangemaster class for using a recalled weapon.

[StraitR]

if the manual says it can happen (pistol fire when dropped), and then it fires when dropped, i'm not sure i'd call that a "defect", it behaved just the way the manufacturer said it would. if you didn't read the manual, and you insist on dropping your loaded pistol, that's a defect of the Dallas PD, not Sig.

there are tradeoffs in everything. they decided, based on what was important to them, to go with the P320. and now they are having second thoughts and trying to blame Sig for a pistol that behaves just the way the manual said it would.

solution: don't drop loaded pistols.

So do you think Sig reps use verbiage from the manual to sell the P320 to LE agencies, or things like "robust safety system" and "you won't need a tabbed trigger safety for your gun to be drop safe"?

[busykngt]

DPD: By gawd, we know there's sumption wrong wif those pistols! We ain't got no "Oh-fissile" reports of anythang wrong but we ain't lettin' dat stop us.... we gona pull them little rascals outta service jest to be shore. And oh yeah, we talkin' wif Sig.... mostly for jest cya coverage at this point.

I'm also beginning to think that mr. zelbiger pulled his video down upon advice of counsel (after having had a brief discussion with Sig attorneys, perhaps?).
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Good Lord, the vitriol attitude directed towards Sig has just been an amazing thing to watch.
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What we need is more unemployed politicians.