Shotgun Self Study

[David S.]

For strictly in-home defense at <15-20 yards, I think one could have a very capable sub 20 yard HD 870 for under $700 if you find components on sale, or $900 if you add an optic.

$275 for preowned 18" 870P or Wingmaster with bead sight. (Using Oregon45's price)
Vang Big Dome safety ($15).

Suggested adds, but would have to be added to the Beretta too.
-proper LOP ($110 Magpul SGA)
-forend with WML mount ($60 FAB Mako or Magpul)
-WML ($100 Streamlight TLR-1/Inforce)
-Side Saddle ($80?)

Long gun holster:
A forward sling mount ($25, Magpul)
Blue Force Gear sling ($50)

Optional, but significantly improves range.
Red dot. ($150, Primary Arms Advanced Micro)
Scope mount rail ($50?)

--------------
The Beretta 1301 starts at $850
Add $325 in Aridus parts and another $110 for Magpul stock
$100 for a WML
Same price for the sling setup
Aridus side saddle $150
Optional $150 PA red dot and $125 for Aridus CROM
--------------

I think the 870 still wins on price.
For the civilian defender, the ability to simply swap in a 28" hunting barrel might be attractive feature.

The 1301 is more refined, absorbs some of the recoil and can't be short stroked.

[Wheeler]

I guess I need to start upgrading my splatter guns with all these must have additions soonest! I guess the tactical vent rib barrel on my Smiff 3k ain't gonna cut it anymore.

[BigT]

Pump guns are like revolvers or 1911's. Cool and all, but really enthusiast guns for any serious business.

Something like a 1301 will be more shootable and more reliable.

[Wheeler]

Pump guns are like revolvers or 1911's. Cool and all, but really enthusiast guns for any serious business.

Something like a 1301 will be more shootable and more reliable.

I suppose in the minds of most of Gun Culture 2.0 that’s accurate. Somehow folks managed to make them work well for 120 plus years prior to the advent of reliable semi autos. I guess anything with a mechanical action has been relegated to the ‘enthusiast gun’ status to those that don’t want to put in the extra work.

Before all the pedants get upset, I’m not saying a pump can be ran as fast as a 1301 or M2. What I’m saying is they can be ran fast enough for social work, which is a lot different than the action matches that most folks experience running a shotgun.

[GJM]

To me, an 870 shotgun is like a 1911, with a range of quality from terrible to excellent. A new to shotguns person is probably going to have a hard time figuring out what to go with and what mods are required. I would just get a 1301, and skip all the doodads. A new guy will shoot circles around an 870 with a 1301 or Benelli.

[TGS]

Somehow folks managed to make them work well for 120 plus years prior to the advent of reliable semi autos.

Note that I don't really have a problem with pump action shotguns.

However, I'd leave this part out of your platform/argument in the future. The rest of your post and reasoning was good, particularly in pointing out that they're sufficient for social purposes. What is quoted above makes me cringe, though.

"If it was good enough for grandpappy it's good enough for me."

"If it's good enough for John Browning, it's good enough today."

Not to mention that prior to metallic cartridges, people were able to make percussion fired weapons work "well". And prior to percussion, people were able to make flintlocks work "well". And prior to flintlocks, people were able to make matchlocks work "well". And prior to that, people were able to make halberds, swords, and arrows work well. The problem is that this is all based on historical context (relativism), instead of objective reasoning. Your position is better served by just leaving this part out, and sticking to the objective reasoning that, "Yes, while a 1301 is a clear technical advancement, the fact remains that a quality pump action is an affordable and completely sufficient option for home defense uses, as well as being versatile to use for other non-defense roles".

It's also wildly inaccurate. Reliable semi-autos existed only a couple decades after pump action shotguns hit the market, not 120 years. They may not have been reliable with a wide range of loads, but they were reliable with what they were designed to do.

[jlw]

Pump guns are like revolvers or 1911's. Cool and all, but really enthusiast guns for any serious business.

Something like a 1301 will be more shootable and more reliable.

I would considering myself a learner enthusiast of the gauge, and with an 870 I can run rings around myself when shooting an auto loader.

[Unobtanium]

To me, an 870 shotgun is like a 1911, with a range of quality from terrible to excellent. A new to shotguns person is probably going to have a hard time figuring out what to go with and what mods are required. I would just get a 1301, and skip all the doodads. A new guy will shoot circles around an 870 with a 1301 or Benelli.

A properly built 870 runs fine. I've never seen or owned a 1911 that ran fine, whether it cost me $1800, or $4500. I've never owned one cheaper than that to comment.

[Wheeler]

Note that I don't really have a problem with pump action shotguns.

However, I'd leave this part out of your platform/argument in the future. The rest of your post and reasoning was good, particularly in pointing out that they're sufficient for social purposes. What is quoted above makes me cringe, though.

"If it was good enough for grandpappy it's good enough for me."

"If it's good enough for John Browning, it's good enough today."

Not to mention that prior to metallic cartridges, people were able to make percussion fired weapons work "well". And prior to percussion, people were able to make flintlocks work "well". And prior to flintlocks, people were able to make matchlocks work "well". And prior to that, people were able to make halberds, swords, and arrows work well. The problem is that this is all based on historical context (relativism), instead of objective reasoning. Your position is better served by just leaving this part out, and sticking to the objective reasoning that, "Yes, while a 1301 is a clear technical advancement, the fact remains that a quality pump action is an affordable and completely sufficient option for home defense uses, as well as being versatile to use for other non-defense roles".

It's also wildly inaccurate. Reliable semi-autos existed only a couple decades after pump action shotguns hit the market, not 120 years. They may not have been reliable with a wide range of loads, but they were reliable with what they were designed to do.

The problem with saying something works well for me is the cognoscenti automatically default to the assumption that only Fudds use that terminology and it has no place in the current Gun Culture 2.0. These are typically the same people that can’t understand how someone can run a double action revolver better than a Glock 19 and don’t care about carrying a double digit number of rounds. In other words I knew exactly what sort of response it would garner and I stand by my assertion. It’s also prudent to note that there are a few thousand rounds of shot through the tubes of multiple shotguns, including an 80 year old Model 11 16 gauge that I used to shoot 3 gun with.

The point that most folks seem to miss is that there’s fast, and then there’s fast enough. Once we get past fast enough the measurement is onlynacademic and for competitive purposes.

It’s also prudent to note that there are no absolutes when choosing a defensive firearm. The choice is as subjective as picking out underwear or shoes. So when you come across a post of mine that uses that sort of terminology that implies something is good enough, please keep in mind that I’m not referring to the guy that shoots 5 rounds a year to score a turkey nor am I discounting the mechanical superiority of a newer system.

Also, comparing the history of pumps and semis over the past 120 years to muskets is a bit specious.

[jlw]

Why do you think that is?

On multiple shots on the same target, the semi has a slight advantage, but that advantage disappears if doing multiple targets or any sort of manipulations. Throwing the slide back and forth is "easier" than hitting a bolt release, at least to me.