Laying the Blame in Minneapolis

[wilco423]

If it is proven that he was pushed through the academy and passed when he should have failed then whoever was pushing him through should be fired.

The MN college level "skills" program is almost ridiculously easy to pass, so "pushing" really isn't necessary. Repeat students are usually due to failing the firearms program. Less than half of all graduates of the program will ever be hired as cops, and the hiring pool has been really thin of late.

[Trooper224]

This can't be repeated too often. Someone who is confident in his ability with a pistol is going to be less likely to make a panicky shot too fast than someone who shoots 50 rounds per year and will also be less likely to mistake a slap on a car for a gunshot (if that is what happened here). I'm not a cop, but I also figure that someone properly trained as a cop would be far less likely to pull the trigger in these circumstances.

But, I think that Blues' FUMU principle might well be behind some of the issues here.

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Being good with a pistol is the least of it. A mature, level headed disposition and well developed critical and communication skills often take guns out of the equation.

[Zincwarrior]

Unfortunately even a 3rd degree involuntary manslaughter charge would be a stretch...

Respectfully,why?

EDIT: This is not a criticism, but a question. A person was murdered. At that point he has to prove a legal justification no? Absent unknown information, how has that been established?

[lwt16]

Respectfully,why?

If I am reading him right, he is referring to whoever decided this guy was street ready and fast tracked him through training. Like a FTO signing off on him to get rid of him and out of his car.

We see that a lot in LE. Someone who really can't do the job but admin makes the final call on who makes it and who doesn't. FTO/line level officers can call a cadet a real zero but depending on how badly bodies are needed, some make it through based solely on staffing levels or diversity quotas.

I think he meant that charging someone with a crime who "passed" this guy is a stretch at best.....in the criminal realm. Civil is a whole different animal and the burden of proof bar is set much lower.

Now that guy that triggered rounds into the citizen? That will be up to a prosecutor and Grand Jury to decide if charges are warranted. At least in my playground.

Regards.

On edit: Here, it's not a murder per se. It's a manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide but a murder it isn't. Legally, of course. It doesn't meet the legal standards for such a charge. Again, all this from afar with no intimate knowledge of what happened.

[Zincwarrior]

If I am reading him right, he is referring to whoever decided this guy was street ready and fast tracked him through training. Like a FTO signing off on him to get rid of him and out of his car.

We see that a lot in LE. Someone who really can't do the job but admin makes the final call on who makes it and who doesn't. FTO/line level officers can call a cadet a real zero but depending on how badly bodies are needed, some make it through based solely on staffing levels or diversity quotas.

I think he meant that charging someone with a crime who "passed" this guy is a stretch at best.....in the criminal realm. Civil is a whole different animal and the burden of proof bar is set much lower.

Now that guy that triggered rounds into the citizen? That will be up to a prosecutor and Grand Jury to decide if charges are warranted. At least in my playground.

Regards.

On edit: Here, it's not a murder per se. It's a manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide but a murder it isn't. Legally, of course. It doesn't meet the legal standards for such a charge. Again, all this from afar with no intimate knowledge of what happened.

That is helpful. Thanks!

[Lon]

A person was murdered.

A homicide was committed. There's a difference. We don't have enough info yet to determine exactly what charge, if any, is applicable.

People wonder why Officers are seldom convicted of a crime when they shoot someone that probably ought not to have been shot but there's a simple answer to that. Most state laws are written in a manner that doesn't really cover officer involved shootings. Look at the recent case in Cincinnati, Ohio with Ray Tensing. The prosecutor overcharged in the indictment and after 2 mistrials due to hung jury has had to dismiss the case completely because he finally admitted he would never get a conviction on either charge - murder and voluntary manslaughter. I could go on and on but the bottom line is that if the people want police criminally charged when they shoot someone who shouldn't be shot then they need to have the state legislatures address that in their statutes (I am not advocating that, just making a point). Or leave it to the civil court. Until that day; however, you are going to continue to see officers charged and then found not guilty or the case will be dismissed due to mistrials.

[voodoo_man]

If I am reading him right, he is referring to whoever decided this guy was street ready and fast tracked him through training. Like a FTO signing off on him to get rid of him and out of his car.

We see that a lot in LE. Someone who really can't do the job but admin makes the final call on who makes it and who doesn't. FTO/line level officers can call a cadet a real zero but depending on how badly bodies are needed, some make it through based solely on staffing levels or diversity quotas.

I think he meant that charging someone with a crime who "passed" this guy is a stretch at best.....in the criminal realm. Civil is a whole different animal and the burden of proof bar is set much lower.

Now that guy that triggered rounds into the citizen? That will be up to a prosecutor and Grand Jury to decide if charges are warranted. At least in my playground.

Regards.

On edit: Here, it's not a murder per se. It's a manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide but a murder it isn't. Legally, of course. It doesn't meet the legal standards for such a charge. Again, all this from afar with no intimate knowledge of what happened.

The names of charges are different from state to state, not that it matters in the scheme of things in this situation, no one outside that officer will be charged criminally.

You are correct in stating that I meant it was a stretch. Even in a grand jury type of situation its a huge stretch.

On the civil side of things, I bet that yoga teachers family will be well off for a few generations.

The only bright side of this whole mess is that the way that PD and city hire and push candidates through their LE academy and FTO will have to change drastically and if it doesn't then heads should roll, politically.

[AMC]

I don't think anything will change in any substantial way. The Chief was fired.....therefore, it's "fixed" in the minds of local Politico's. In reality, LE administrators and managers are never held liable in any way for the easily foreseeable negative outcomes of their decisions or non-decisions.That's why it continues. And anyone replacing the former Chief is a product of the same system.

[txdpd]

less likely to mistake a slap on a car for a gunshot (if that is what happened here).

Having been in a car while it's being shot, I can see how the two sounds could be mistaken. Having said that, the first thing I would want to know is what in the hell did I just hit.

Their should have been a "tactical" plan. If we get shot at responding to a call and we are in the car we are going to do the following _________. "Sit in the car and let someone walk up to the window" should not go in that blank.

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Being good with a pistol is the least of it. A mature, level headed disposition and well developed critical and communication skills often take guns out of the equation.

It's too bad that we don't have portable telephones to call and speak directly with the person that called 911. Just imagine having the ability to get the person that called to give first hand information, even possibly tell you exactly where they are at and what they are wearing. If they were really worried about being ambushed that's information that they could use to devise a "tactical" approach and not get caught sitting in a squad car.

How they supposed to hear someone being raped or having sex, sitting in a car over the sound of the engine? Part of the problem with our current training is that it's just to answer calls and not how to investigate calls (that may not apply to Minneapolis). And good patrol investigations and good patrol tactics often go hand in hand. A good way to approach this call to investigate it, is also good tactics to approach this call safely. Park down the street, approach on foot, look and listen.

[Lon]

One of the Minneapolis mayoral candidates wants to disarm MPD. That'll work well.