Certainly the MUC part of it, but didn't Mr. Givens students (but one) have no physical contact at all during their shootouts? Quote:Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
I certainly wouldn't put ECQC in "basic". Don't get me wrong, but would you really point beginners towards ECQC / a BJJ lifestyle?The fight was won in all of these cases by the quick application of pretty basic skills.
Last edited by overton; 07-23-2017 at 11:54 AM.
If our ultimate priority is to protect life, there is a case to be made that the typical person (urban/suburban environment) would be best served making their priorities something like this:
1. Awareness and MUC - Managing Unknown Contacts.
2. General health and conditioning.
3. Medical - Particularly BLS, like CPR and first aid, then moving to tourniquet and massive bleeding stuff. (Lone Star Medics and Dark Angel combine all of it into a two day class)
4. Defensive Driving
5. Hand to hand skills. Boxing and wrestling.
6. Less Lethal. OC spray, etc
7. Firearms training.
The order is probably mixed up, but @Sherman A. House DDS made the case for this in an article several years ago.
Last edited by David S.; 07-23-2017 at 12:31 PM.
David S.
Outstanding article, Thanks Sir.
Thank you David!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/revolve...-defender/amp/
You don't have to be J. Jonah Jameson to figure out that my essays are largely inspired by @Tom Givens ' training, through lecture and range coursework, as well as his writings and texts. I wrote this essay after trying to relay to friends from outside the, "training junkie," community how to start. I refer people to it regularly, including as early as last week, for a friend and his spouse who began receiving death threats. Both are in the entertainment biz and had no framework to tackle the issue. This isn't a panacea, but it's a start.
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Nice read, Sherm. Well articulated and laid out. You make a strong case.
There's nothing civil about this war.
Of the various class I have taken over the years (Firearms Academy of Seattle and LFI 1 & 2 in the 90's, some questionable ones from a trainer no longer with us and heavy IDPA in the early 2000's, and more recently Dark Angel Medical, Keeper's AIWB, John Murphy, Green OPs, and Shivwork's ECQC) I would put LFI 1 (whatever the modern equivalent is) and ECQC as the two most important for a beginner that is serious about carrying a handgun. Other classes have taught me much more about the mechanics of shooting but for the average person some sort of legal (both their local laws and a good course in the judicious use of lethal force) & the exposure to how quickly conflict can occur (ECQC) are in my opinion the most important. I doubt everyone that goes to ECQC becomes a BJJ regular but they have a much better idea of how they may react to a stressful situation. The evolutions of ECQC alone are worth the cost.
ETA I also believe medical is a must have, if only a basic trauma / CPR class.
Last edited by sharps54; 07-23-2017 at 07:23 PM.
MAG40
I will have to pass on ECQC in Olympia next month, finances are stretched out a little more than we anticipated.
In the meantime, I would have to put Tom's Combatives Pistol on the list of "musts" for someone who is serious about surviving a gunfight.
More to the point of "Do you need a carbine class with a chest rig, a dump pouch, etc?" I can't help thinking that maybe for the person who can afford it, getting his Walter Mitty on by taking a class oriented to skills he is highly unlikely to need or use may not be a bad thing. Doing something different and fun might keep his interest up. It might lead him to research other stuff -- like a trauma class. It might generate an epiphany about his or his buddy's derpitude.
I suspect that most folks, if they take a class at all, take the 4 or 6 hour "introductory" class at their local range, and leave it at that.
Plus, I have to wonder how many folks live within an easy one day drive of quality instruction, and know it -- people I know look at me like I'm crazy when I start talking about taking a class at Firearms Academy of Seattle, or looking at a class taught by Insights. They have no idea how much training is available in this area.
(I try to direct them to Firearms Training Hub but I have no idea if any of them look. Besides which, FAS and Insights don't list their classes there.
Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
“It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
Glenn Reynolds
SoonTM.
Seriously, I have both operations on the list to get up. Thanks for the plug.
Last edited by David S.; 07-23-2017 at 09:41 PM.
David S.
Thanks, I haven't really kept up with Mas after he had to revamp his program.
I totally understand the finances part, I'm already saving toward the three or four classes I hope to take next year. I definitely wasn't excluding Tom's class (which is on my 'to do list'), or any others, I was just commenting on the classes I have first hand experience with.
This is 100% the case. I have a buddy in NC who really wants to take a Pat McNamara class and I was able to turn him on to one not an hour from his home! The other thing we benefit from are good AARs on sites like this one, P&S, and TPI. The key is knowing how to sift the gold from all the crap.Plus, I have to wonder how many folks live within an easy one day drive of quality instruction, and know it -- people I know look at me like I'm crazy when I start talking about taking a class at Firearms Academy of Seattle, or looking at a class taught by Insights. They have no idea how much training is available in this area.
Last edited by sharps54; 07-23-2017 at 10:23 PM. Reason: forgot to say thanks
Wasn't meant to nag, I assumed that they had not (yet?) given the go-ahead.
BTW, that date/time thing has popped up in other sources, so maybe it's not you, it's me...
In my AAR of Tom's class (on the blog) I said
I certainly agree, that, if you have a budget in money or time that restricts how many classes you can take, then you should take the class that best suits your needs, and that would include an honest assessment of the scenarios likely to apply to you.The fact of the matter is, for most people it is actually going to be a matter what's available, when and where; that is, of checking calendars and taking the class(es) you can afford, convenient to you geographically, when it is convenient to your schedule.
The fact is that we have some excellent "traveling" instructors these days, and you would be well served by consulting the Firearms Training Hub website, looking at when and where training would be convenient to you, and making your plans.
What I want to do next is take a one or two day class at FAS with the wife, who has avoided training beyond the basic classes she has taken, because "I just don't enjoy that stuff as much as you."
And I will now contradict what I said earlier in the thread, by lamenting that I have not been able to convince her that it's not about enjoyment, it's about training to be more effective at armed self-defense.
Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
“It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
Glenn Reynolds
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