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Thread: New Article on Training Priorities

  1. #31
    Site Supporter David S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drang View Post
    Wasn't meant to nag, I assumed that they had not (yet?) given the go-ahead.
    No worries. I didn't take it as nagging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drang View Post
    What I want to do next is take a one or two day class at FAS with the wife, who has avoided training beyond the basic classes she has taken, because "I just don't enjoy that stuff as much as you."
    Unfortunately basic and CHL classes often seem to be the least interesting and taught by the least engaging instructors. I've attended a half dozen CHL classes over the years and only one of them had me wanting to come back for more. The one we did like happened to be a student of John Murphy. So I don't blame her. My wife and I are in the same boat: I can learn from just about anybody, but she really needs to find chemistry, or something, to engage with her instructors. Finding the right instructors has been hit and miss, even with the P-F name brands.

  2. #32
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    Unfortunately basic and CHL classes often seem to be the least interesting and taught by the least engaging instructors. I've attended a half dozen CHL classes over the years and only one of them had me wanting to come back for more. The one we did like happened to be a student of John Murphy.
    This is the ugly elephant in the room. I would argue that CHL and intro to handgun classes are some of the most important classes that are taught. How well you learn to do something early, will have a huge impact on how well you can do it in the future. If you learn, shitty, sub-standard technique early, you will struggle for the rest of your life.

    I think it takes a much better instructor to teach a basic class than it does to teach an intermediate/advanced class. I've always tried to take basic classes with a variety of instructors because they reveal how good of an instructor they actually are. (And it's the best place to obtain quality material - it's not stealing if you paid to be in the class)

    There seems to be a strong tendency to rationalize and reduce the importance of these classes to the point that any moron can teach them. One of the more recent Ballistic Radio episodes with Kathy Jackson explored this nicely.
    • It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
    • If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
    • "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG

  3. #33
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    There's way too much common sense in that article. The AR forums are gonna break. Thank you for posting Mr. Givens. You made me feel better about what I have been doing. It was a good way to start the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I also realize my situation is a little different, as I spend a significant amount of time with a shotgun in my hands on a daily basis, with a likely threat that makes Brenneke slugs desirable.
    On another note, I suspect the silhouette targets on which GJM practices are in the form of a bear.

  4. #34
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    There seems to be a strong tendency to rationalize and reduce the importance of these classes to the point that any moron can teach them. One of the more recent Ballistic Radio episodes with Kathy Jackson explored this nicely.
    Unfortunately, some folks see the mandated classes as a 'constitutional issue' and push for reducing class time (as happened in TX), eliminating them for renewal or have 'constitutional carry' with no class as a 2nd Amend. issue.

    Since we know that many gun males (as Karl Rehn pointed out in his presentation) won't train, it's something of a lost cause. I had 4 'gun friends'. They like to talk the guns and ammo talk. Only one has taken my concerns about training and tactics seriously. The others - they clear their houses themselves, they plan to fire a spray of 45 ACP as they fight their way to their shotgun, blah, blah.

    Get them to train realistically with some of our folks here - forget it. They got their Judge ready to go as a car gun.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Unfortunately, some folks see the mandated classes as a 'constitutional issue' and push for reducing class time (as happened in TX), eliminating them for renewal or have 'constitutional carry' with no class as a 2nd Amend. issue.

    Since we know that many gun males (as Karl Rehn pointed out in his presentation) won't train, it's something of a lost cause. I had 4 'gun friends'. They like to talk the guns and ammo talk. Only one has taken my concerns about training and tactics seriously. The others - they clear their houses themselves, they plan to fire a spray of 45 ACP as they fight their way to their shotgun, blah, blah.

    Get them to train realistically with some of our folks here - forget it. They got their Judge ready to go as a car gun.
    I finally found another person who had reservations about the CHL changes! I have been called a few names for this exact argument.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Tom, as always, thanks for the effort you put into your various writings. I know that it takes a lot of time to put these together, and I read every word. I particularly like the way you relate your training ideas to the specifics of your student data base of shootings.

    I have a question on long gun training. Are you opposed to:

    1) long gun training generally

    2) classes where accountants, doctors and lawyers jock up like the military operators they are not

    3) or something else

    I started my formal class training in the late 80's, and many of my most memorable classes were long gun -- like 270 at Gunsite, Urban Rifle with the carbine at TR, shotgun with Randy Cain/Bill Jeans/Louis Awerbuck. Starting with Jeff Cooper, it was drilled into us that handguns were to fight your way to your rifle, and skilled shooters ran handgun, rifle, carbine and shotgun with equal skill. I also realize my situation is a little different, as I spend a significant amount of time with a shotgun in my hands on a daily basis, with a likely threat that makes Brenneke slugs desirable.

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
    Not Tom, but have trained with him numerous times and we largely agree on priorities. While learning to drive a bulldozer might be a fun endeavor, if you don't actually work on the back of a bulldozer in everyday life or plan to get a job that requires you to, then you probably should spend more of your time driving your car that you will actually be driving everyday (at least until you can do that at a high level) and not spending an inordinate amount of time on learning to operate a bulldozer that you will likely never use.

    As someone who teaches both rifle and pistol I spend a fair amount of rifle class time making sure civilian students are clear on the context that the rifle is a proactive tool for them , that they will in all likelihood have to go get it (and all their gear) and that short of natural disaster or civil disorder it is extremely unlikely that they will either need (nor want) to wear armor, a chest rig, and carry a half dozen magazines for the rifle. After all...if you empty one 30rd mag in civilian world USA you are going to be on the news.....if you empty TWO you are going to be in the encyclopedia......

    Having said that, if you are going to have a rifle ostensibly for use for home defense then you need to know how to use it. Just be mindful of real world priorities and probabilities. I've seen several dudes who can barely draw a pistol safely and not shoot themselves with it who have taken multiple carbine classes from all the SealDeltaHRT guys and keep going back. When I ask what the real likelihood is of ever actually using those bitchin' guy skills of shooting through a car windshield from inside a car in a team setting with a rifle they sheepishly say "probably none"......and as soon as they leave the range the rifles get locked in the trunk and their pistols go on their belts....which do you think they are going to end up actually using if something happens at the gas station on the way home?

    What may be the best all time quote on this subject (and I don't have the exact words so I'll paraphrase) was from Craig Douglas...."If you can't keep the average dude from raping you in the shower the last thing you need is another carbine class"......

  7. #37
    Site Supporter SeriousStudent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    ....... After all...if you empty one 30rd mag in civilian world USA you are going to be on the news.....if you empty TWO you are going to be in the encyclopedia......

    ......
    Mr Harris, you make an enormous amount of sense.

    I was talking with a member of this forum last weekend, and we discussed people who discuss "shooting bad guys" at hundreds of meters. Barring a complete collapse of civilization, I'd love to see them explaining to a jury or ADA how someone a quarter-mile (or further) away was an imminent, deadly threat to them.

    I own rifles that can easily shoot quite accurately at that distance, many of us do. But they are for range enjoyment. It's good to practice the concentration needed to perform marksmanship at distance. But that's all those rifles will ever be for me.

    The old Gen 2 Glock 19 with tens of thousands of rounds through it?? Different story.

  8. #38
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    After all...if you empty one 30rd mag in civilian world USA you are going to be on the news.....if you empty TWO you are going to be in the encyclopedia......
    QFTMFT
    • It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
    • If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
    • "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG

  9. #39
    I am all for handgun skills and spend the bulk of my training on the handgun. However, if you hunt, you need to be able to run a hunting rifle accurately to humanely harvest game, and you ought to be able to defend yourself with that hunting rifle. If you live and recreate around large dangerous animals, you need to be able to defend yourself with a long gun. If you travel in or through non-permissive handgun states, you should know how to run a "legal" long gun.

    Compared to years past, there seems to be a lack of appreciation of long gun skills with many "modern" shooters, and a relative lack of instructors that can teach beyond "Glock and AR." That is not directed at Tom, as I know he regularly teaches long gun classes.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I am all for handgun skills and spend the bulk of my training on the handgun. However, if you hunt, you need to be able to run a hunting rifle accurately to humanely harvest game, and you ought to be able to defend yourself with that hunting rifle. If you live and recreate around large dangerous animals, you need to be able to defend yourself with a long gun. If you travel in or through non-permissive handgun states, you should know how to run a "legal" long gun.

    Compared to years past, there seems to be a lack of appreciation of long gun skills with many "modern" shooters, and a relative lack of instructors that can teach beyond "Glock and AR." That is not directed at Tom, as I know he regularly teaches long gun classes.
    And part of that probably has to do with gun culture 2.0 being the target audience now, and they tend to be a little more urban, less interested in hunting, and more likely to have had their initial exposure to guns come from video games than from a father or uncle.

    I get where you're coming from GJM, I really do, because I'm always on the line. Right on the line between Gen X and the millennials, right on the line between the old school gun culture and the new one, and on and on. I actually did get my intro from my father out on the farm, the old school way. Yet more of my guns and training interests resemble 2.0, if you ignore the 870 Wingmasters and revolvers in my safe.

    And one last point, there's a lot of monkey see monkey do out there in the training world IMO. That pushes the Glock and AR part of it as well.

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