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Thread: Police Fitness Test Discriminated Against Women (CO)

  1. #51
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    I think there should be an admin standard and a patrol standard with the patrol standard being job related (timed sprint, obstacles, simulated H2H,etc).

  2. #52
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    Back in the day I tried to have input on PT standards. I put together real world testing using input from the troops on the street. The testing included:

    * Run up six flights of stairs then go hands-on with a suspect

    * Sprint 50 yards, climb an eight-foot fence, then go hands-on with a suspect

    * Swim the length of an Olympic pool

    * Manipulate Glock slide simulating immediate action drill X 10 (running firearms training, had many who couldn’t manipulate slide. Lack of forearm/hand strength?)

    State officials told me the Cooper Standard was the standard they would stick with. Reason, it was defensible if challenged in court. Defensibility of standards can shape testing.

  3. #53
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    I've read several recommendations for fitness testing that includes fighting with a role player. Any thoughts on how to implement that? How could one standardize the fitness and skill levels of the role players? What about the elements of chance that occur in most struggles? Off hand, I can't think of a way to use fighting as a test process, but it is an interesting idea.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    I've read several recommendations for fitness testing that includes fighting with a role player. Any thoughts on how to implement that? How could one standardize the fitness and skill levels of the role players? What about the elements of chance that occur in most struggles? Off hand, I can't think of a way to use fighting as a test process, but it is an interesting idea.
    How about ability and duration? Running up stairs or climbing fences is one part of test. Combine those with a second part testing ability to engage after exertion. Do not have to win. Just stay in the fight for X amount of time. A set number for all, no weighted scoring for age or sex. Might be more real world.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Peally View Post
    Moral of the story is be a firefighter. Netflix and Xbox.
    For the win!

  6. #56
    PF testing is a murky subject,especially on an institutional level such as the military. Whatever standard the organization sets is what people will train to,for better or worse. Further some folks who'd otherwise be eminently qualified to do the job will be DQd by certain aspects of any test created.

    My first supervisor was a fireplug of a man. The dude was by no means an unfit dirtbag,but he always took a hit on PT Testing because he had a huge waist. It wasn't because he was unfit; it's his body type to be a barrel chested guy. Meanwhile the beanpoles who clocked fast 1.5 mile times always aced their PT scores.

    While I realize AF PT is a comedy script ,that's not what I'm trying to impart. No PT test can successfully measure the fighting fitness of everyone regardless of how well or poorly it's backed scientifically. Ive met four foot nada women that could square up if needed,and I've met six foot + monsters with the grit of a philosophy major.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
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  7. #57
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    I've read several recommendations for fitness testing that includes fighting with a role player. Any thoughts on how to implement that? How could one standardize the fitness and skill levels of the role players? What about the elements of chance that occur in most struggles? Off hand, I can't think of a way to use fighting as a test process, but it is an interesting idea.
    ...and you start to see the issue that makes departments just use pushup/situp/run. There's really no way to standardize the test of fighting someone. Going three rounds with Mike Tyson isn't going three rounds with PeeWee Herman, and even going 3 rounds with fresh Mike Tyson vs end-of-8-hours-of-doing-this-shit Mike Tyson isn't the same.

    Be able to climb a privacy fence? That's a reasonable test for patrol, something that's standardized, and something that's job relevant. It's also the same for everyone who is in patrol, privacy fences are the same height no matter how old you are or what genitals you are equipped with. If you're going to do a PT test, that's the sort of thing that should be included. Then job specific. Personally, I think K9 is the most physically demanding job on most police departments. I used to do K9 tracks as the patrol rifle backup. Keeping up with the dog, fighting through brush, lifting the dog over fences, etc. K9 cops, my hat is off to you as that's a bust ass job.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    I've read several recommendations for fitness testing that includes fighting with a role player. Any thoughts on how to implement that? How could one standardize the fitness and skill levels of the role players? What about the elements of chance that occur in most struggles? Off hand, I can't think of a way to use fighting as a test process, but it is an interesting idea.
    I wouldn't bother. It's not worth the risk.

    The first thing I would do is send everyone to a cardiologist. Studies on trained and healthy boxers have shown them hitting over 100% of the laboratory predicted maximum heart rate while fighting and averaging up to 98% of their maximum heart per three minute round. Fighting is incredibly strenuous. Along with that and "All that's old is new again" in the fitness world, Borg's rate of perceived exertion (RPE) is making the rounds again. It's from the early 70's, and uses a number system of 6-20 and it's very subjective system based off of your perception of how your body feels. It's very difficult to use and that's why it pops up and dies off. Most people simply cannot accurately perceive how hard they are actual working, unless they are approaching failure. Most people are either at rest, in that vast space of not training as hard as they can, or training towards failure. We're talking about a test that could push subjects to the very physical limits of their hearts, and even if you asked them to take it down a notch they wouldn't realistically know where to stop. With the under 30 crowd it's not that big of a deal, the 45 and over crowd is playing with a stick of dynamite with a short fuse. Look at how amped up some officers get in SIMS training and that's without a physical stimulus.

    Edited: here's one study on boxers https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3871409/

    Then there's the risk of bone, joint, and muscle injuries. So also hire a physical therapist and a chiropractor, and probably some physical trainers. How many officers can you afford to put on short or long term disability to conduct a test?

    I think you'd be much better off with a skills assessment in a controlled environment and a separate physical test. Pushing a heavy prowler in a parking lot is a good way to get someone's heart rate up, have them do some hard work and have a low injury risk. I doubt that any court would validate that as a test. I get that you will never be able to simulate fighting without fighting, and even the best training out there will only work as well as the trainee is willing to push himself.



    My main focus would be functional fitness, and I don't mean crossfit. Unless they do pistol squats, most officers can't do a reverse step up, they'll maybe make it three inches on the way down and collapse. That's a big deal for a patrol officer that's using a similar movement pattern getting in and out of his squad car/suv 20 times a day. He's not using his hamstrings or glutes, and his knees and lower back are taking a beating. 20 bad reps down, 20 bad reps up, 200-250 working days a year, year to year. It's a recipe for chronic injury. Pushups, done with correct form with the abs and glutes will be engaged and a slight posterior pelvic tilt are a great exercise. Most people will use their hip flexors and spinal erectors to hold their core. It's a dysfunctional motor pattern, akin to not being able to walk and chew bubble gum. If every time you walked and chewed bubble gun, you bit your tongue, and you walked all the time, no one is going to be surprised when your tongue looks like a waffle. We shouldn't be surprised that an officer that control his core while doing a pushup usually won't have the ability to maintain a neutral pelvis position while walking around and end up with chronic back, hip and knee problems. Some mickey mouse PT test isn't a panacea that's going to cure the physical ailments of police work, but some of that basic stuff can help stave off chronic injuries, loss of productivity, and most importantly give officers the chance to avoid some of the physical conditions that affect quality of life during and post career.

    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    24 pushups in a minute means you can avoid the beating? 10 means you take it? Detective A is 120 lbs and can do 30 pushups. They avoid the ass whipping from the 300 lb slob who can't tie his own shoes? You're right, it doesn't replace DT, and is not a measure of the ability to fight.

    We've got a homicide detective with double knee replacement as of last year. Nearly two decades of major felony investigating experience. Force him to retire because he can't run a mile in 10 minutes? Female sergeant pushing 60, over 20 years in homicide, incredible level of knowledge of the various criminal enterprises and connections behind grudge and dope murders. Force her to retire because she can't do pushups?

    Double up in the interview room. Post an armed deputy/officer outside the room. Suspects restrained to a wall chain. If you're officer safety plan is reliant on always being the biggest, strongest person in the room you're going to get fucked one day when you aren't. I interviewed a robbery suspect last week who's biceps were about the size of my thigh, and I'm a bigger guy.
    I never said that pushups would stop someone from taking a beating, you're living in a fantasy world if you think someone that doesn't have the baseline physical fitness to do some push ups has a remote chance in a fight. I didn't realize I wrote what my officer safety plan was, but thanks for letting me know how fucked I am. I must have missed the part where I wrote about retiring out officers too. Thank you for deep insight into what I wasn't thinking.
    Last edited by txdpd; 07-16-2017 at 10:28 PM.
    Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.

  9. #59
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    ...and you start to see the issue that makes departments just use pushup/situp/run. There's really no way to standardize the test of fighting someone. Going three rounds with Mike Tyson isn't going three rounds with PeeWee Herman, and even going 3 rounds with fresh Mike Tyson vs end-of-8-hours-of-doing-this-shit Mike Tyson isn't the same.

    Be able to climb a privacy fence? That's a reasonable test for patrol, something that's standardized, and something that's job relevant. It's also the same for everyone who is in patrol, privacy fences are the same height no matter how old you are or what genitals you are equipped with. If you're going to do a PT test, that's the sort of thing that should be included. Then job specific. Personally, I think K9 is the most physically demanding job on most police departments. I used to do K9 tracks as the patrol rifle backup. Keeping up with the dog, fighting through brush, lifting the dog over fences, etc. K9 cops, my hat is off to you as that's a bust ass job.
    I had a two hour search the other night. It started about 0100 and ended at 0300 when my dog found the suspect hiding under a BBQ grill cover in a backyard over a wall. We were walking a path behind the house. My dog alerted and the other K9 team went in and got him to surrender. Then we had to finish the walk back to the car. It's a much better walk after a find. A little under 4,000 steps on that search.

    It's an energized walk because you're getting pulled by the dog. We try to hold back for our covers sake. BBI knows the dogs walk fast!
    Last edited by Coyotesfan97; 07-16-2017 at 10:25 PM.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  10. #60
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    I wouldn't bother. It's not worth the risk.

    The first thing I would do is send everyone to a cardiologist. Studies on trained and healthy boxers have shown them hitting over 100% of the laboratory predicted maximum heart rate while fighting and averaging up to 98% of their maximum heart per three minute round. Fighting is incredibly strenuous. Along with that and "All that's old is new again" in the fitness world, Borg's rate of perceived exertion (RPE) is making the rounds again. It's from the early 70's, and uses a number system of 6-20 and it's very subjective system based off of your perception of how your body feels. It's very difficult to use and that's why it pops up and dies off. Most people simply cannot accurately perceive how hard they are actual working, unless they are approaching failure. Most people are either at rest, in that vast space of not training as hard as they can, or training towards failure. We're talking about a test that could push subjects to the very physical limits of their hearts, and even if you asked them to take it down a notch they wouldn't realistically know where to stop. With the under 30 crowd it's not that big of a deal, the 45 and over crowd is playing with a stick of dynamite with a short fuse. Look at how amped up some officers get in SIMS training and that's without a physical stimulus.

    Edited: here's one study on boxers https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3871409/

    Then there's the risk of bone, joint, and muscle injuries. So also hire a physical therapist and a chiropractor, and probably some physical trainers. How many officers can you afford to put on short or long term disability to conduct a test?

    I think you'd be much better off with a skills assessment in a controlled environment and a separate physical test. Pushing a heavy prowler in a parking lot is a good way to get someone's heart rate up, have them do some hard work and have a low injury risk. I doubt that any court would validate that as a test. I get that you will never be able to simulate fighting without fighting, and even the best training out there will only work as well as the trainee is willing to push himself.



    My main focus would be functional fitness, and I don't mean crossfit. Unless they do pistol squats, most officers can't do a reverse step up, they'll maybe make it three inches on the way down and collapse. That's a big deal for a patrol officer that's using a similar movement pattern getting in and out of his squad car/suv 20 times a day. He's not using his hamstrings or glutes, and his knees and lower back are taking a beating. 20 bad reps down, 20 bad reps up, 200-250 working days a year, year to year. It's a recipe for chronic injury. Pushups, done with correct form with the abs and glutes will be engaged and a slight posterior pelvic tilt are a great exercise. Most people will use their hip flexors and spinal erectors to hold their core. It's a dysfunctional motor pattern, akin to not being able to walk and chew bubble gum. If every time you walked and chewed bubble gun, you bit your tongue, and you walked all the time, no one is going to be surprised when your tongue looks like a waffle. We shouldn't be surprised that an officer that control his core while doing a pushup usually won't have the ability to maintain a neutral pelvis position while walking around and end up with chronic back, hip and knee problems. Some mickey mouse PT test isn't a panacea that's going to cure the physical ailments of police work, but some of that basic stuff can help stave off chronic injuries, loss of productivity, and most importantly give officers the chance to avoid some of the physical conditions that affect quality of life during and post career.



    I never said that pushups would stop someone from taking a beating, you're living in a fantasy world if you think someone that doesn't have the baseline physical fitness to do some push ups has a remote chance in a fight. I didn't realize I wrote what my officer safety plan was, but thanks for letting me know how fucked I am. I must have missed the part where I wrote about retiring out officers too. Thank you for deep insight into what I wasn't thinking.
    We're talking about the OP, which included retiring investigators for failure to perform PT standards, not just your post.

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