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Thread: Police Fitness Test Discriminated Against Women (CO)

  1. #61
    So, final thought on the matter. My department does not have ongoing PT tests after the academy. To the best of my knowledge, we never have. Yet somehow we get the job done. We are also an "old" department. We have historically hired people later in life rather than earlier, older rookies equates to older officers, and all that goes along with being...older. There is more to this job than fighting, and even with the constant conflation of some basic PT standard equating to a DT standard, and eliminating otherwise good officers for failure to perform a pulled-out-of-the-brass'-ass PT standard is short sighted at best. Yes, I know I could have a knock-down-drag-out tomorrow. I'm taking SouthNarc's ECQC this fall, and expect to get my ass handed to me repeatedly. I get it. I also know I've not been in a physical struggle since becoming a detective. I've been in a shooting, I've talked some guys down, but not once have I went hands on with someone. No detective in my office has in the 5 years I've been in that office. We are dealing exclusively with robbery and murder (or other shooting/stabbing/etc) suspects. It's ok to be a 60 year old woman in our office, because we don't rely on a 60 year old woman's fighting ability to keep her safe.

    So, yes, you can make a PT test specific to patrol. Then people who can't pass get shuffled into admin or investigation slots they really aren't qualified for just to save their careers, bypassing those who actually deserved it.

    We've got some fat asses and some people who can't jump a fence. There's always a trade off. However I'll take a few loads over the loss of experience, and both our brass and our FOP has felt the same. Especially today when getting qualified applicants to apply and stay is tough enough as it is. I'm all for hiring fighters and studs. But be reasonable, this job breaks us down over the years. Especially if you're in a violent and heavy call volume beat. If we could put old cop brains in young cop bodies, we'd have some super fucking cops. I could still pass the applicant PT test except probably the sprint, and I'm still on special services, so don't get the idea I'm just bitching to bitch or that I couldn't pass. I can today. 10 years from now...who knows? It's just fucking stupid to force someone who's apparently been doing the job to satisfaction for 24 years into the street because push-ups.

  2. #62
    Site Supporter Drang's Avatar
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    It seems to me that the obvious retort to "(The) Police Fitness Test Discriminated Against Women" would be "In order to prove that, you have to prove we deliberate set out to devise a PFT that few if any women could pass."

    Maybe in my next life I'll be reincarnated into a rational world.
    Last edited by Drang; 07-17-2017 at 04:42 AM.
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  3. #63
    ne'er-do-well blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drang View Post
    It seems to me that the obvious retort to "(The) Police Fitness Test Discriminated Against Women" would be "In order to prove that, you have to prove we deliberate set out to devise a PFT that few if any women could pass."

    Maybe in my next life I'll be reincarnated into a rational world.
    Someone will always be unhappy with any test...physical, written, what have you.

    When I took the NYPD entrance exam in the mid to late 70's it was laughably easy except for the last part which was where you had to memorize a crime scene and then several minutes later answer questions regarding the clothing, appearance and weapons of those portrayed in the image.

    Otherwise the test was very easy, (like "if the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the three" easy imho), and I got 100% which is no reflection on my brilliance.

    The test was challenged for being culturally / racially biased and unfair to certain groups. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why based upon the questions I had to answer...and the odd thing was that Hispanic candidates who spoke English as a second language did far better on the test than the group(s) that brought the lawsuit. Go figure.

    The test was thrown out. And, interestingly enough, many otherwise qualified candidates who did well on the test, (but did not have relatives on the force), were found to have various mysterious "medical" problems to ensure that slots were open to those who did not fare as well on the exam.

    And so it goes.

    (PS: During this period, it was my own uncle, an anti-crime officer in Brooklyn who recommended that I get on with the feds as it was less political. I found out over the years that may not have been entirely true.)
    Last edited by blues; 07-17-2017 at 08:13 AM.
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  4. #64
    In private companies it's not unusual for firms to target tenured staff for "early dismissal", since older folks on the verge of retirement represent a potential cost drain to the company via pensions and benefit claims.

    Considering the Colorado PT test only applied to tenured employees and it was a single step to being canned ( even the military wasn't that strict during a RIF cycle) , I get the sense the test was more "pension reduction tool" and less "physical fitness evaluation metric".
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  5. #65
    ne'er-do-well blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    In private companies it's not unusual for firms to target tenured staff for "early dismissal", since older folks on the verge of retirement represent a potential cost drain to the company via pensions and benefit claims.

    Considering the Colorado PT test only applied to tenured employees and it was a single step to being canned ( even the military wasn't that strict during a RIF cycle) , I get the sense the test was more "pension reduction tool" and less "physical fitness evaluation metric".
    It's sad that we have to view the world through such jaundice colored glasses but I think you may have a valid point.
    "The writer's job is to tell the truth." - Ernest Hemingway

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    In private companies it's not unusual for firms to target tenured staff for "early dismissal", since older folks on the verge of retirement represent a potential cost drain to the company via pensions and benefit claims.

    Considering the Colorado PT test only applied to tenured employees and it was a single step to being canned ( even the military wasn't that strict during a RIF cycle) , I get the sense the test was more "pension reduction tool" and less "physical fitness evaluation metric".
    Sounds like a lawsuit.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelist View Post
    Sounds like a lawsuit.
    Everything is law suit material. Question is what can you prove in a court of law.

    Lots of age discrimination suits happen across the country. Wonder how many actually get somewhere.

    Sad but true.

  8. #68
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    I know a guy who was told to train a new graduate. Did so, and was fired to be replaced by the new grad. He was 60+.

    Accepted nothing (rule number one) on the way out, got a lawyer, and took very little effort to settle for ~30% of his yearly salary. Probably could've gotten more the but the lawyer thought costs would cut into and he wouldn't do any better.

  9. #69
    ne'er-do-well blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjohnson4405 View Post
    I know a guy who was told to train a new graduate. Did so, and was fired to be replaced by the new grad. He was 60+.

    Accepted nothing (rule number one) on the way out, got a lawyer, and took very little effort to settle for ~30% of his yearly salary. Probably could've gotten more the but the lawyer thought costs would cut into and he wouldn't do any better.
    That's some dirty pool right there.
    "The writer's job is to tell the truth." - Ernest Hemingway

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Firefighting went through this years ago when women complained that things like bench presses were being used as fitness tests for employment. One result was the CPAT:

    The Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT):
    The CPAT is a timed course consisting of eight events that simulate actual actions firefighters are expected to perform. The events must be performed safely and correctly within set guidelines. The CPAT is a pass/fail test, and the entire course must be completed within 10 minutes and 20 seconds or the test is failed.

    During the test, the candidate will progress through the course of events wearing a 50 lb. vest, which is meant to simulate a firefighters self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA), turnouts and gear. The eight events consist of:

    Stair Climb (an additional 25 lbs (2 -12.5 lb weights) are added to the candidates shoulders for this event to simulate carrying hose packs up the stairs of a high-rise building.
    Hose Drag
    Equipment Carry
    Ladder Raise and Extension
    Forcible Entry
    Search
    Rescue
    Ceiling Breech and Pull


    It's hard to argue that it's not relevant to the work requirements.
    While the work is generally relevant, the time is entire too long. Our yearly Work Performance Evaluation is similar but it's done with gear and SCBA. A box step is used as opposed to a stairmill. The time is the same.

    You can WALK it at a leisurely pace and finish it in 6 - 6 1/2 minutes. I'm 46. The younger guys finish well under 5 minutes when they hustle.

    Some folks literally sit down for 2-3 minutes in order to rest enough to finish.

    The mile run produced and retained more fit people of both sexes. The fitness of men has decreased by lowering the standards to accommodate targeted employee demographics.

    Sadly many people only work to achieve the minimum standard.

    I really don't see it ever changing. As the older guys retire the newer folks will only know the lower standards and see them as the new norm and acceptable.

    It's not an accident.


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