Do you lock your elbows?

[BehindBlueI's]

As many of you probably remember, I had some nerve damage that jacked up my left (support) hand and left it with very little sensation and greatly reduced grip strength. I compensated for this largely by using the "push-pull" tension because my grip was pretty weak otherwise.

So, I'm at roughly 130 pounds of grip strength again per the calibrated doo-dad and have as much sensation as I'm ever going to have (almost full other than pointer finger which is still rather numb). That's back into my normal range, so I'm trying to shoot like I used to, as the push-pull is a bit slower to first shot. Prior to the injury, I was trying to work on keeping my elbows up. Now I'm finding if I do that and keep a slight bend in the elbow, my grip feels really odd with a double stack. It makes the grip feel huge and after 4-5 shots I actually have to readjust my support hand as it's slipped forward on the grip. This causes me to grip too hard with my right and do the low/left dive as the string goes along because I feel like I'm going to lose my grip on the gun.

Locking the elbows and leaning in more aggressively keeps my grip from breaking, but feels like it'll be awkward when I go to move. I've been working this out on an indoor range so no movement yet. With both elbows locked (and I honestly forgot if I was rotating my elbows to point out or left them pointing down, now that I think of it) I can shoot the level 2 of "find your level" pretty consistently at 3y and good failure drills at 15y with a 2.3 second par time from the low ready.

My question is what do you do with your elbows, and why? I'm measurably better with the lock out now, but I also realize sometimes you have to take a step back as you learn a better technique vs doing your bad technique you're really used to.

[Talionis]

As many of you probably remember, I had some nerve damage that jacked up my left (support) hand and left it with very little sensation and greatly reduced grip strength. I compensated for this largely by using the "push-pull" tension because my grip was pretty weak otherwise.

So, I'm at roughly 130 pounds of grip strength again per the calibrated doo-dad and have as much sensation as I'm ever going to have (almost full other than pointer finger which is still rather numb). That's back into my normal range, so I'm trying to shoot like I used to, as the push-pull is a bit slower to first shot. Prior to the injury, I was trying to work on keeping my elbows up. Now I'm finding if I do that and keep a slight bend in the elbow, my grip feels really odd with a double stack. It makes the grip feel huge and after 4-5 shots I actually have to readjust my support hand as it's slipped forward on the grip. This causes me to grip too hard with my right and do the low/left dive as the string goes along because I feel like I'm going to lose my grip on the gun.

Locking the elbows and leaning in more aggressively keeps my grip from breaking, but feels like it'll be awkward when I go to move. I've been working this out on an indoor range so no movement yet. With both elbows locked (and I honestly forgot if I was rotating my elbows to point out or left them pointing down, now that I think of it) I can shoot the level 2 of "find your level" pretty consistently at 3y and good failure drills at 15y with a 2.3 second par time from the low ready.

My question is what do you do with your elbows, and why? I'm measurably better with the lock out now, but I also realize sometimes you have to take a step back as you learn a better technique vs doing your bad technique you're really used to.

I have a somewhat similar experience to you in that I at one point had enough nerve damage that my left hand was completely paralyzed, and the neurologist who examined me told me I would be lucky to regain 75% function in that hand. It took some time, but I now perceive no material negative difference in either dexterity or strength from before that happened.

During recovery, when shooting, I did not adjust my grip back to the more traditional push-pull weaver shooting, I simply dealt with the increased muzzle flip and the need for a more perfect trigger press. I did also experience issues with grip slipping until my grip was over 100lb again.

Generally a slipping offhand grip has nothing to do with elbows locked or not, but a combination of how hard you are gripping the gun and the way you are doing so. When I show people how hard I grip the gun with my left hand, they are invariably surprised. Your off-hand is the vise that holds the gun steady. I have found that shooting with too much tension in the arms is overall detrimental, especially with anything involving shifting point of aim. Locked elbows is a great example of that tension. Try shooting with a very hard grip, locked wrists, and relaxed arms and see how it goes.

[BehindBlueI's]

Generally a slipping offhand grip has nothing to do with elbows locked or not, but a combination of how hard you are gripping the gun and the way you are doing so...Try shooting with a very hard grip, locked wrists, and relaxed arms and see how it goes

Gripping it like I was trying to break it is what I tried first. I was gripping 100% effort with my left hand, and couldn't keep it on the gun. All I did was induce shake and push low/left. It's tough to describe, but the grip feels gigantic. This is a P226, a gun I had zero issue with when at full health. I transitioned to a P220 for awhile because the single stack was much easier for me to manage. I'm debating going back to it.

Maybe it is my wrists, I'll have to hit the range tomorrow and concentrate more on what I'm doing there. It's just irritating, as I've taken a definite step backward.

[Talionis]

Gripping it like I was trying to break it is what I tried first. I was gripping 100% effort with my left hand, and couldn't keep it on the gun. All I did was induce shake and push low/left. It's tough to describe, but the grip feels gigantic. This is a P226, a gun I had zero issue with when at full health. I transitioned to a P220 for awhile because the single stack was much easier for me to manage. I'm debating going back to it.

Maybe it is my wrists, I'll have to hit the range tomorrow and concentrate more on what I'm doing there. It's just irritating, as I've taken a definite step backward.

Understood. There is certainly more to it than gripping full force. I do not grip the gun full force by any means for similar reasons to what you experienced when you tried it. It induces shakes, and can cause a lot of snatching the trigger. One thing to consider, I do not grip equally hard with both hands. For me, the left hand is the vise, the right hand is what makes the gun go bang. I can be pretty relaxed with my right hand and still have a full solid grip on the gun because my left is squeezing the right into the gun. Overgripping with the right is very likely to cause the dreaded shank that you experienced.

I think you are probably on to something with your wrists, the angle you set your wrist at, and consequently the angle you grip the gun, can have a real impact on how the gun behaves in your hands, if it wants to squirm around, or just move up and down. That is something that will vary from person to person too, and requires time and awareness of what is going on with the gun to get right.

[BehindBlueI's]

Understood. There is certainly more to it than gripping full force. I do not grip the gun full force by any means for similar reasons to what you experienced when you tried it.

Right, and I should clarify I wasn't trying this as my actual way to shoot, just as an experiment to see if I had enough grip strength to keep my grip from breaking. I didn't, even if I didn't care where the rounds went. It showed me I physically could not keep my grip from breaking even at full strength, so I needed to do something other than "grip harder".

I'm definitely trying the strong left/looser right. I know that's the way to do it. But when my grip breaks it's tough to leave the right relaxed since it feels like you'll drop it if you don't.

When you jacked up your hand, did the grip feel bigger? I know this sounds odd, but it's definitely my perception. Keep in mind I couldn't feel myself get burned when it was at it's worst, maybe the feedback I'm getting is just weird. I don't know shit about how nerves work and didn't think to ask the doc. It's like someone put a fucking pool noodle over the grip when I wasn't looking, but only to my left hand.

[GJM]

What model pistol and what ammo are you shooting?

Not sure how you meant it, but when I hear "locked elbows" it raises flags related to injury, since long time shooters fall into two categories -- those with elbow pain and those without it at that moment.

[GJM]

duplicate post

[Talionis]

Right, and I should clarify I wasn't trying this as my actual way to shoot, just as an experiment to see if I had enough grip strength to keep my grip from breaking. I didn't, even if I didn't care where the rounds went. It showed me I physically could not keep my grip from breaking even at full strength, so I needed to do something other than "grip harder".

I'm definitely trying the strong left/looser right. I know that's the way to do it. But when my grip breaks it's tough to leave the right relaxed since it feels like you'll drop it if you don't.

When you jacked up your hand, did the grip feel bigger? I know this sounds odd, but it's definitely my perception. Keep in mind I couldn't feel myself get burned when it was at it's worst, maybe the feedback I'm getting is just weird. I don't know shit about how nerves work and didn't think to ask the doc. It's like someone put a fucking pool noodle over the grip when I wasn't looking, but only to my left hand.

Sounds like you're doing a lot of things "right" though they may not be working for the current state of your hands at the moment. Something I would suggest is to experiment not just with grip power, but with how it is applied. An example of what I'm referring to is making sure that most of the pressure you exert with your support hand goes into keeping the heel of your thumb super tight against the gun, and I'm not just referring to the side of the grip. I'm better at showing than telling, so I just snapped a picture of my grip with the firing hand removed. You may be able to see that the heel of the thumb on my support hand is also in contact with the backstrap of the gun to some degree, and exerts pressure there.

Just as an experiment, and I'm not suggesting you adopt this as a shooting technique, next time you are at the range try to grip the gun hard but not control it. Just let it do what it wants to while maintaining a hard grip. The point of that is to discover if the gun breaks your grip because you are trying to muscle it down (which is common) or because you are gripping hard. This comes to mind because people try to force recoil control in different ways, some do so with the turtle; hunched over and elbows locked, and others tend to do so from the wrist forward.

When my hand was bad, I was heavy into 1911's, so my point of reference probably isn't as valuable on that point. I can say I don't remember a feeling of grip width being an issue then. For me, it was more the fact that my wrist didn't want to do what I wanted it to do combined with a weak grip (which at 130lb, yours is definitely not at this point). Nerves do weird things though, so I'm not surprised that we have divergent experiences there. I didn't have much feedback other than feeling like someone had driven a nail through my wrist for a couple years, I just repeated the mantra of "grip like a vise" a lot. I also wasn't nearly as experienced a shooter then as I am now, so I've no doubt my grip broke a fair amount back then.

[BehindBlueI's]

What model pistol and what ammo are you shooting?

Not sure how you meant it, but when I hear "locked elbows" it raises flags related to injury, since long time shooters fall into two categories -- those with elbow pain and those without it at that moment.

P226 .40. I'll likely be changing to 9mm in about 6 weeks as my department switches over.

Just as an experiment, and I'm not suggesting you adopt this as a shooting technique, next time you are at the range try to grip the gun hard but not control it. Just let it do what it wants to while maintaining a hard grip. The point of that is to discover if the gun breaks your grip because you are trying to muscle it down (which is common) or because you are gripping hard.

I'll give it a try tomorrow, but I really don't think that's the issue. Even if I slow fire without adjusting I'll break my grip. It's like the gun is sliding straight back out of my left hand. That's why I went to push/pull. It kept both hands in play without having to stop every 4-5 rounds and readjust my left hand back where it belonged.

I also didn't notice much issue shooting revolvers. The locked thumbs (or thumb print to thumb nail) grip I use wasn't affected. The thumbs forward definitely was, though.

[GJM]

I wondered if it was .40. A switch to 9mm would likely do wonders.

Just today, I was shooting a PPQ 5 inch .40, and it felt more like work than fun. I am at the point, that even if I choose to carry, or was required to carry .40, I would want to do the bulk of my practice with 9.