Beretta 92D With Updates

[LadyLuck]

Jon, I'm afraid I would not be the best person to talk with the experts about this with my limited mechanical knowledge and experience with the 92 series. Someone with better "credentials" than me would be best able to discuss and understand the totality of this issue.

[LangdonTactical]

I have 3 92D's - 2 full size, 1 Centurion. All three have Wilson Combat trigger bars with the "overtravel" nub. I, and other 92 series owners with these WC bars, are seeing damage to the softer alloy frames. The overtravel nub pounding on the frame slot is wearing in a depression on the frame. This is evident after only about 500 rounds. We are not sure of the effects of the damage other than as the damage deepens the overtravel function may be lost. This was brought to light by a member of another forum.

It's too early to tell if it's a serious issue or not with these WC bars found in the WC action tune kits and TJIAB's. Do any of your 92D frames have this damage for those of you who have replaced your OEM bar with the WC one that has the overtravel nub?

Here's a picture of my damaged full size 92D frame which had the WC bar for about 5-700 rounds. The OEM bar is now reinstalled. I have not checked my other 2 92D's.

What exactly is the concern here?

Yes, the trigger bar wears on the frame where the over trave stop lands. It is steel, the frame is aluminum. There is going to be some wear there, there is also wear on the frame in other places as well. I have guns, and customers have guns with tens of thousands of rounds through them with this trigger bar. Yes, there is wear there, as there is wear in other places on the frame of the gun. There is going to be wear anywhere you put an overtravel stop as it has to contact the frame of the gun somewhere.

Here is a picture of my main 92 that I am shooting right now. It has about 15,000 rounds through it, and I am not concerned.

Is it causing you some kind of issues with the gun?

[LadyLuck]

I think the concern is that the deep enough dent will negate the benefits of the overtravel nub and eventually be no different functionally than an OEM bar from just the overtravel perspective. Cosmetics aren't the real concern. The posters on the Beretta forum have better explained the concern than I can here as I said I really don't have experience enough. The conversation starts near the end of this thread with post #179:

https://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=134306

(I personally have no issues with my TJIAB/ActionTune guns as I am not sensitive to overtravel and cannot feel the difference between the overtravel of either configuration.)

[JonInWA]

Ernest, thank you for taking the time to respond both here and on the berettaforum.net regarding this. I have experienced no issues with my 92D with the triggerbar, and I'm reassured by your explanation and accumulated experience on your personal 92 with it, and the lack of issues with other client's 92s with it.

The triggerbar has been an important factor in refining the performance of my 92D, as well as correcting the trigger hitch induced by cumulative wear in the OEM triggerbar's rear pad when use broke through the OEM's surface hardening. Your answer has answered and assuaged my concerns; I'll continue with mine without concerns.

LadyLuck, thanks for bringing this to our attention; it needed to be addressed and I'm glad that Ernest was able to do so. Your image helped to define the question, as did the other images and discussion on berettaforum.net. It's a great illustration as to how the internet can be used to expeditiously both identify and resolve a perceived issue.

Best, Jon

[Poconnor]

My quick take on the support hand issues- get stronger. Dry fire. A lot. As far as the frame wear with the overstop? Guns wear out. If you shoot them a lot they wear out faster. I recently traded my VP9s for a berreta PX4 compact. I’m not saying the berettas are better, just different and they fit my carry needs better today. I have arthritis and nerve damage so I want a TDA and I am jumping on the beretta train

[LangdonTactical]

There are a couple of issues at play here.

One, the Wilson trigger bar is made from machined steel. It is much harder and therefore way more durable than the factory trigger bar, which is cast. I have had to throw away hundreds of them over the years. This is why the Wilson trigger bar provides a better double action trigger pull for much longer than the factory trigger bar.

Two, the wear that happens on the factory trigger bar tends to make the hammer start to drop early in the DA pull, therefore reducing hammer arc and firing pin energy. The Wilson bar lasts longer and also tends to make the hammer arc just slightly longer in DA. I don't know where anyone said it would put the hammer farther back in single action. As far as I can tell that is just not possible, likely a misunderstanding.

The amount of wear on the frame it would take to make the reduction in over travel improvement go away far exceeds what would ever happen. You're talking about a dent that is 4 hundredths of an inch. That would be a huge dent in the frame. I have guns with over 30K thought them and the dent is no worse than the guns with 10K through them. The high round could guns still enjoy a reduction in overtravel and therefore reset distance to this day.

Even if you take the reduction in over travel out of the equation, it is a much-improved part over the factory trigger bar.

This is my opinion, based on working on these guns, working for Beretta, and doing thousands of trigger jobs on these guns over the last 25 years. Take it or leave it, totally up to you.

[CraigS]

After the thread on beretta forum brought that wear spot up I looked at mine. Yep it's there too. But after I realized that the TJIBs reduce over travel, I also took the more traditional approach doing an 'adjustable' version of the old speed bump trigger to fine tune over travel.
20180826_130525 by craig stuard, on Flickr
This is the thickest version which only works in one gun. The other 3 have a layer of UHMW tape. One other data point re; my old EII. When I installed a TJIB in it, it wouldn't fire. Turns out the speed bump trigger I had forgotten was in there (12-14 yrs ago) wouldn't let the trigger travel enough. My point is that this is a very fine line here. The concern that the frame dent could cause problems I think is nothing to worry about. Worst case that dent will stop growing when the trigger begins hitting the frame. In any case I have 4 B92s w/ TJIBs and the trigger bar is staying in them.

[JonInWA]

Minor upgrade: My LTT G10 grips have had Challis O-rings installed as a buffer between the screws and G10 grips, to both anchor the grip screws and prevent unscrewing caused by vibrations from firing and recoil. They generally had worked well (the Challis O-rings are thing, so I stacked two per grip screw), but o the highpowercollectors.proboards.com forum, Moderator and extremely experienced shooter Bob Reed recommended using electronic industry Red Insulating Fiber Washers.

As I'd previously been only moderately pleased with the rubber O-rings that I'd tried (the Challis ones were too thin for the High Power grip screw/grip screw aperture interface, and just got mangled on installation, and the big box store #60 O-Rings worked, but were a bit too thick, inducing a bit too much stand-off distance and allowing for minor grip movement) on the High Power; as far as I could tell the Challis ones were working fine on the 92D, where I'd stacked them 2 per grip screw-after use, only minor re-tightening was needed occasionally.

I decided to remove the LTT G10 grips on my 92D and check; the Challis rubber was showing some beginning sighs of deformation and deterioration. I replaced them all with one Red Insulating fiber washer per screw; washer dimensions are 3mm inner diameter X 6mm outer diameter X .5mm thick. I scored what's probably a lifetime supply at Amazon for under $5 (and with free shipping as well; woo hoo!); https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

Since the LTT grips have adequate stand-off distances incorporated in the screw boss area, only one washer was needed per screw, with the screw not protruding too far through the back of the grip plates to scrape and mar magazines during loading and ejection.

If there's any undue unscrewing in use with them, I'll likely go back to the Challis O rings; I'll keep my results posted after use.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I competed on back-to-back weekend IDPA matches with the 92D. Nothing particularly eventful to relate, except that I apparently still suck at weak-hand shooting with the 92D despite incorporation of weak-hand/strong hand practice into my daily dry-fire practice routine.

Well, maybe I suck a little less-my points down were almost half of what they were in the previous match with strong/weak hand only stages. Oh, wait-the previous match had 2 such stages, this match only one....so I guess I still am a work in progress.

I'm very pleased with American Eagle 124 grain ball for practice and match use. Accurate, reliable, and reasonably clean. The same weight as my primary carry load, Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P. I don't anticipate any power floor issues with it, either.

There's no doubt in my mind that the skills inherent to shooting the 92D DAO have a very positive carry-over to my other actions; during a lull in Saturday's match, I ran 50 rounds through my .40 High Power to operationally test/familiarize with a new recoil spring and a buffer. I was easily able to repetitively achieve down zero shots , both center of mass and to the IDPA head box. That fact that the High Power has a relatively long reset (i.e. the trigger needing to go all the way forward) similar to the 92D probably helped also.

There's a rhythmic consistency to the DAO in the 92D, intrinsically and significantly aided and abetted by the Wilson Combat action component upgrades, and the thin LTT grips definitely help you take full advantage of the action's goodness.

I'm ambivalent about the Check-Mate teflon-treated magazine tubes that I'm testing. They work flawlessly, but the teflon seems to be relatively easily worn off at the high points that are banged against the receiver innards during the reloading process. I'm uncertain if they provide any significant benefits over the standard Check-Mate dry-film finished magazines that I've run for 12+ years in the gun (and while I've received several shipments of newer production dry-films, I'm making a point by deliberately running one of my older ones at this and the previous match, with a 2005 production date). No magazine issues whatsoever have surfaced, regardless of magazine production date (other than one slightly oversize tube that worked effectively, but didn't drop free; at trip back to Check-Mate's resizing die took care of that issue-it's been running flawlessly subsequent to that for literally years).

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Last weekend, I participated in the 2019 Washington State IDPA Championship match, and had a superb time....



Yep, under my jersey is my full-size Beretta 92D in an IWB and on my weak side, two 15 round magazines in an Olen kydex dual magazine pouch....not personally seeing an overarching need to go to the latest sub-compact hotness for concealed carry needs....

Here's the IWB holster I used; Bruce Clemans of Olen Holsters made it to my specifications, mainly with the dual clips to best support the size and weight of the 92D, and with a full sweat shield for both comfort and as an assist to re-holstering.



The magazine pouch is also by Olen; for several years, I've experimented with downward-extracting magazine pouches; to withdraw the magazine, you simply tug down. It's particularly useful for summer carry under untucked Hawaiian shirts and similar, eliminating the need to pull the covering garment up first to access the magazine. Magazine security during m=normal movements and activities is achieved by incorporating subtle ledges that the magazine floorplates click into.




And here's the 92D in all its relative glory:



For any interested, the cap is a modern reproduction of an Italian M-43 cap; the maker, Brent, does a very nice job; I've purchased several of his caps over the years.
http://timemachine13.com/m_43_caps_.htm

Throughout the entire match, I used the same 3 Check-Mate magazines; one of the very first ones that Check-Mate provided to me to test back in 2007, a dry-film finished one, but with an experimental stainless steel spring, and two of the latest experimental ones they've provided to me for long-term testing, with the tubes finished in teflon (baseplates and followers of all magazines are also finished in dry-film).



All three magazines ran absolutely impeccably; the 2007 one is a 2005 production piece that I've used continuously for 12 years, for carry and IDPA-it certainly hasn't been babied. The more recent teflon tubed magazines have been run in several matches to date, with nary a bobble.

Key take-outs from the match:

1. The Langdon LTT G10 ultra-slim grips simply flat-out work; one of the stages required that our hands were immersed in a sink filled with water, and only at the start signal were we to remove them from the water and then draw and deploy our guns. The combination of the Langdon's checkering size and orientation, and the G10 material itself provided a stable, non-slip grip throughout, but also facilitated easy hand adjustments as required.



2. The Trijicon/ToolTech tritium sights, with a orange surround/green tritium front and blackened surround/yellow tritium rears worked superbly as both day- and low-light sights. In a darkened shoot-house stage, with very low/diminished ambient light, I was easily able to negotiate the stage and effectively and accurately engage targets without needing to resort to my tactical flashlight.



3. The Wilson Combat Extended and Checkered Magazine Release expedited speedy magazine ejections. As an after-market/non-OEM component, it jetted me into the deep waters of ESP, but a similar Beretta release (which I believe was originally made for the Vertec) is available from BUSA, and can keep you in SSP desired (it's the one Wilson Combat uses in their Wilson-Beretta collaborations, to keep the guns IDPA SSP legal); I'm perfectly satisfied with the one I've got, and could care less if I'm in SSP or ESP.


4. The upgraded Langdon/Wilson triggerbar provides a beautiful, consistent rolling trigger break, aided and abetted by a Wilson Combat chrome silicon trigger return spring and Wolff triggerbar spring, and a 13# Wilson Combat chrome silicon mainspring; all combine to provide a beautiful 6 lb triggerpull, enabling me to perform difficult shots, such as multiple headshot targets consistently on demand. The cartridges I used throughout the match were Sellier & Bellot 124 gr ball-clean and accurate, but also noted for having some of the tougher primers; I had absolutely zero ignition issues with the gun as set up.

5. I had absolutely no problems with reloading with my standard magazine well and lanyard loop, and feel no compelling desire to invest in a magazine chute or flared well for my 92D.

6. While I appreciate the additional carry beveling Ernst Langdon provides on his Beretta 92s, particularly on several locations on the frames, I had no hot spots, rubbing, or cuts from my OEM frame. While not an ultra-high count match (I fired 220 rounds in the match), the gun was used in 12 stages over a 9+ hour period. If I was to get one of Ernest Langdon's LTT 92s, I'm sure I'd appreciate the beveling provided, but don't feel it's an absolute necessity for normal 92 carry and use.

While I certainly didn't set any land-speed records, or win any plaques, I was very pleased with my match. Yep, there's huge room for improvement-there always is. But I had a great time, shot with a superb squad (including two exceptionally performing police officers and a former Navy pistol team member); we throughout the day encouraged and challenged each other to push our respective performance parameters. And the facility, Marty Hayes' FAS Academy inn Onalsaka WA, was very well suited for the match-he and his staff did a great job throughout.

Best, Jon