Current State of the Shotgun

[SamAdams]

My understanding is that .223 penetrates fewer interior walls than buckshot. One could also argue that a miss with a single projectile is less dangerous than a miss with 9 projectiles.

States which require using a shotgun for hunting base this in the theory that a shotgun projectile will not travel as far as one launched from a rifle. Although such incidents are not common, there have been incidents of slugs traveling quite some distance before hitting a house.

Regarding "buzz words" in another thread, I have rarely seen the word "shotgun" in the news without the words "sawed off" in front of it, although the vast majority of shotguns discussed were too long to meet the definition of a sawed off shotgun.



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Round balls aren't particularly aerodynamic. They shed velocity more quickly than pointy bullets. I read about 5.56 versus buckshot within a building and its likelihood to penetrate interior walls. But I wonder if there might be applications where the more limited range of a shotgun would be desirable. - Not arguing either way; I have no idea if the shotgun is obsolete in police work or not.


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[deputyG23]

LE here,
Our work still (barely) issues 870Ps to civil process and a couple of the prisoner transport folks. A previous commander removed the two shotguns from the prisoner transport bus and most of the transportation deputies some years ago and I am attempting to convince the command staff to put at least one back on the bus and to get all of the transport staff shotgun qualified and issue them out again. No rifles owned or authorized for duty. I brought the subject up during a staff meeting a few weeks ago and the conversation leaned toward reinstating them for transport staff and taking the shotties away from the civil process deputies. I frankly was a little shell shocked by the comment and the Training Captain jumped in and gave a brief general statement about why Civil still needed long guns. I need to write a detailed justification on why they should be kept, or even (gasp) supplemented with at least a few rifle certified people.
My HD long gun is an old Winchester 1200 riot gun from the 60's that lives under the blanket chest at the foot of the bed. This old girl is slicker than snot on a doorknob. Less noise if fired indoors and more oomph per trigger pull than my one 20" Colt AR that stays locked up.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I'm a civilian.

I've trained extensively with a shotgun, and used it as my primary weapon while working as a (wait for it) shotgun rider in armored trucks from 96-05.

Now, in my mid career dental practice, I keep a shotgun handy at the office for emergency use, loaded with slugs. In addition to possible human threats, we have black bears which wander close to the office and get nosy in the dumpsters. If I used it for self defense from humans, I'd be wary of my backstop and angle appropriately.

Although I'm a tall guy, I too don't like the 14" LOP, so I use either the Magpul stock, the Hogue short stock, or the wood OEM professionally trimmed to 12" LOP. That really changes the handling properties of the 18" barreled guns.

I use birdshot for training, but since I don't really hunt (don't have time) I will admit that my experience with birdshot is limited to shooting pheasants. Like @DocGKR I've also treated birdshot wounds to the face and jaws, and while they're a challenge for the surgeon, they were effectively an inconvenience for the offender. Maybe if their eyes were hit, it would be more effective, but I've yet to see that.

I use Federal FC OO for my household gun, and Tru-ball or Brenneke slugs for the slug guns. My slug guns have ghost ring aperature sights, and my buckshot guns have barrel mount beads or pedestal beads. Of the two, I prefer the barrel mounts because I like the lack of offset for closer ranges. Not a huge deal but if you compare the two there is a metric there that should be noted. I put slings on mine, but more for administrative carry, than, "slinging up," for operational use. If I had to help a guy lift bags/load pallets of money into the truck, being able to go hands free is useful. I used to CRINGE at the guys who would lean the gun on the truck bumper or wheel well, whilst loading. I saw one gun get run over because of that. Let alone the fact that it advertises to the bad guys that you aren't prepared.

I have a light and a sling on my HD gun. The sling is all bungee, and was originally an old school bungee breaching sling. It stays out of the way, and doesn't impede access to the loading gate or the ejection port. The SF light is heavy, and in my HD capacity, it is setup for static defense in the safe room with a clear backstop.

Tom Givens says words to the effect that, "The 12 gauge shotgun is the most potent weapon the civilian has in their arsenal," and I tend to agree.

Before I had an AR (child of the AW Ban) I used to think they were the holy Grail. In my medical career, I saw a number of people headshot/body shot with 556, in what would otherwise be lethal locations, but they lacked the penetration necessary to cause death or immediate incapacitation. Anecdotal, you bet. But it made me think critically about the 556 in particular, and when I had the option to use one instead of the 12 gauge at work, I always opted for the 12.

For the civilian context, which boils down to three missions for me, 1. Counter robbery for business defense. 2. Saferoom defense for home invasion. 3. Bear defense at the office.

For those tasks, I feel quite confident and prepared with the shotgun. Your tasks may vary.


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[SamAdams]

In my experience the LE shotgun is falling out of favor. The simple fact is the carbine gets the most training time and it's use is highly encouraged by our division Primary Firearm Instructors (PFIs). I can't recall a single time in the last two years seeing a shotgun deployed on an operation. The shotgun has it's place still but the culture in my agency keeps them locked away and rarely seen. In fact, at our last quarterly firearms training, not a single SA or TFO shot the shotgun qualification course (SQC) and most don't keep a current semiannual qualification score. Also, the newer (2014) SQC is the most difficult course of fire and I've seen many guys and gals struggle to pass.

Do you think recoil is the primary reason for the difficulty some people have ?

I'm not particularly recoil sensitive. The recoil from a 3 1/2" Magnum 12 gauge heavy turkey load will get your attention. (I read somewhere that its equivalent in the typical weight shotgun used, to firing a 458 Winchester rifle. But then again, you don't fire a bunch of turkey loads in one session.) You can fire a lot of magnum loads while goose hunting though (not as hard kicking as turkey loads). --- I'm just curious how shotgun recoil may effect people's effectiveness.


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[TGS]

With the rise of vehicles being used as a primary weapon during a terrorist attack, I think it's short sighted for law enforcement agencies to ditch shotguns in an effort to go 100% with 5.56 carbines. The latter is essentially the answer for yesterday's threat, when cops were carrying shotguns and found themselves outgunned against dismounts....

In my mind, an effective visible deterrent team or group of first responders would have a mix of shotguns with Federal Truball Deep Penetrator to handle vehicle shots, and M4s with a bonded JSP for dismounts with some modicum of capability for vehicle barriers. Save the 00 and #4 buck for entries and rural cops that dispatch thin skinned animals. Soft Foster slugs designed in the 1930s for hunting deer have no purpose in LE outside of specific niche uses, IMO.

A VIPR, Hercules team, etc without hardened-slug shotguns have a serious capability gap given their mission.....in my opinion. In a perfect world with an effective "arms room" theory TO&E, an officer in a patrol car would have both a shotgun and AR15 at the ready. Likewise, vehicle check points at critical infrastructure facilities and whatnot should have a shotgun with hardened slugs if belt-fed weapons are inappropriate/unavailable.

As for civilians, the Blunderbuss is the every-man's gun and has no reason to go away. With a single inexpensive shotgun, you can have a slug gun accurate to 100 yards (adequate for hunting in most of the US), a bird gun, a trap/skeet sporting gun, and a very capable short range home-defense weapon in case of home invasion or civil unrest.

[Beat Trash]

I'm a civilian.

I've trained extensively with a shotgun, and used it as my primary weapon while working as a (wait for it) shotgun rider in armored trucks from 96-05.

For the civilian context, which boils down to three missions for me, 1. Counter robbery for business defense. 2. Saferoom defense for home invasion. 3. Bear defense at the office.

For those tasks, I feel quite confident and prepared with the shotgun. Your tasks may vary.


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As I read through Sherman A. House's post, the first thought that occurred to me was, "the mission drives the gear train". He has trained with the shotgun. And for his needs, especially when factoring in Black Bears, the shotgun makes a lot of sense.

I still cringe when I hear people lecture to me about how the sound of a pump shotgun will scare off an intruder. These same people have never been faced with an actual critical incident. Apparently the criminals in their neighborhood are little bitches. Not the case where I've lived and worked my entire life.

Many uneducated people think that there's noting to running a pump shotgun. It's easy to believe that, unit you've been around someone who can run a pump. But it's a perishable skill set that requires work to maintain. There was a time, 15-20 years ago, when I could shoot an 870 at the same speed as a Remington 1100. Now, with little maintenance training on the 870, I'm not even close.

I still maintain that for my professional needs, the Patrol Rifle brings much more to the table than the pump shotgun. But I think it's important to first determine what the needs are, then look for the appropriate tool for the job. Dr. House did an excellent job of describing his "mission" into three categories. Were I in a similar position, a shotgun makes a lot of sense.

It kind of makes me want to start reading through some of the threads on the Beretta 1301...

[Sherman A. House DDS]

As I read through Sherman A. House's post, the first thought that occurred to me was, "the mission drives the gear train". He has trained with the shotgun. And for his needs, especially when factoring in Black Bears, the shotgun makes a lot of sense.

I still cringe when I hear people lecture to me about how the sound of a pump shotgun will scare off an intruder. These same people have never been faced with an actual critical incident. Apparently the criminals in their neighborhood are little bitches. Not the case where I've lived and worked my entire life.

Many uneducated people think that there's noting to running a pump shotgun. It's easy to believe that, unit you've been around someone who can run a pump. But it's a perishable skill set that requires work to maintain. There was a time, 15-20 years ago, when I could shoot an 870 at the same speed as a Remington 1100. Now, with little maintenance training on the 870, I'm not even close.

I still maintain that for my professional needs, the Patrol Rifle brings much more to the table than the pump shotgun. But I think it's important to first determine what the needs are, then look for the appropriate tool for the job. Dr. House did an excellent job of describing his "mission" into three categories. Were I in a similar position, a shotgun makes a lot of sense.

It kind of makes me want to start reading through some of the threads on the Beretta 1301...

Thank you Sir. And I echo your sentiments on the 1301. At this point though, getting three of them (one home, one office and one for training) is so much infrastructure that it's really a turn off, mentally. Maybe, I'll procure one and run it through some classes to see if the juice is really worth the squeeze, but for now, I can't bring my Hebrew sensibilities to bear on the finances of the problem. If used Wingmasters and the 1301 were comparable in price, maybe. But now I'm such a neat freak it would be difficult to make the gear switch. Silly, I know.


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[Lyonsgrid]

Do you think recoil is the primary reason for the difficulty some people have ?

Yes, recoil matters...especially with the shotgun.
Watching someone fire slugs from the prone position with a poorly placed stock position will quickly show who needs more training.

[SamAdams]

Yes, recoil matters...especially with the shotgun.
Watching someone fire slugs from the prone position with a poorly placed stock position will quickly show who needs more training.

That can definitely loosen a few fillings.

Lots of fun sighting in a scoped deer slug gun or 3 1/2" mag turkey gun


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[blues]

but for now, I can't bring my Hebrew sensibilities to bear on the finances of the problem. If used Wingmasters and the 1301 were comparable in price, maybe.

And here I thought the desert people were finally getting a break due to the Scots' sensibilities.