Thanks for clarifying. I'll be storing and shooting with extra attached ammo and a white light at all times. The M2's sensitivity to added weight may be a deciding factor for me.Originally Posted by GJM
Thanks for clarifying. I'll be storing and shooting with extra attached ammo and a white light at all times. The M2's sensitivity to added weight may be a deciding factor for me.
My M2 ran fine on training birdshot and an Aridus shell holder and Aimpoint S1 and Nordic +5 tube. It wouldn't function with training birdshot while short sticked. I need to try it with buckshot.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
Excellent information, thank you DB.
I've looked around and can't find an answer to this, so thought I'd present it here for discussion instead of starting yet another shotgun thread.
I keep reading, from people whom most would consider SME's, that typical HD shotgun scenarios rarely take more than one shot. I can't remember who it was, because I've read so much about it all in the last few days, but one of said SME's commented that they've never seen a defensive shotgun encounter take more than three shots in totality, and that it's extremely rare. Let's not get bogged down in the details of what if scenarios and we all acknowledge that anything can happen outside of statistics and opinions.
So my line of questioning...
If defensive conflicts with a shotgun rarely take more than one shot, some taking two, and on a rare occasion 3 (or more), why do people get so up in arms about having the ability to run a pump gun as quickly as a semi? Are instructors teaching cyclic dumps in semi-auto shotguns? I'm confused by the statistics vs what I'm seeing and reading about being able to run a pump quickly. On YT, there's a video of Steve Fisher running the piss out of a pump, saying "this is how you run a pump gun". Very (VERY) impressive, but is that a necessary skill?
I'm not a door kicking assaulter, I'm not a cop, just a now civilian who's processing time would likely never keep up with that rate of fire in my (hopefully never) first defensive use of a firearm anyway. Am I wrong for thinking this type of speed skill with a shotgun is irrelevant, much like that of a pistol, where SME's here have said, "gunfights are rarely won at cyclic". ???
If so, is there any reason a pump cannot be ran just as effectively as a semi for HD?
@Dagga Boy
David S.
"Average" statistics can be misleading, and my bad luck would be to have a scenario falling into the "rarely" zone. Sometime bad guys or bad animals travel in packs. Sometimes bad guys and animals run. Sometimes they have armor.
The issue is not so much speed but reliability. Semi auto shotguns most often falter because of ammo, where pump shotguns most often falter because of the person manipulating them. As Darryl told me, pump gun skills are very perishable.
The pump gun shines in launching a wide range of ammo, in terrible conditions. If you pick a reliable semi-auto, feed it quality buck and slugs, and don't drag it behind a truck on a sling, it will very likely function like a large caliber AR.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
The vast majority of my shotgun experience has been running an 870 through Darryl's class twice now. (So, not much) That said, I agree with everything George said.
OTOH, out of the 400ish rounds in two separate 1-day classes, I short stroked my 870 once while running the gun fast and hard. I was purposefully "outrunning my headlights" on that particular drill. The simple and obvious "malfunction drill" was to just re-rack the slide and I was back in the game. Backing the pace off just a bit and I had no problem running reliably.
Of course that's in a square range in a normal squared off, standing position. I can easily see how the pump could be more difficult to run in a less than perfect stance.
Someday I'll invest in a much more expensive Beretta or Benelli. If I was a cop or lived in dangerous game country I might be more inclined to pick one up a semi-auto sooner, but for now I'm cool with my ol' $150 pawn-shop special.
Mods: Vang Big Dome safety ($12), railed forend ($30ish), Magpul SGA Stock ($100), Pic rail/side saddle ($130), a red dot and a WML. I see a lot of guys in the shotgun threads spending very similar money outfitting their Berettas and Benellis.
David S.
Running a pump gun with just one arm is quite a chore. As someone that often has a leash in my hand, or who can envision having to hold on with another arm, or shoot injured, the semi is in a different class under these circumstances.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
I agree 100% pump gun skills are perishable. I have done an above average amount of shooting and training (I think 5 or 6 classes with pump guns), but the last year and a half I've been spending more time with the 1301. During the spring I picked up the pump gun, and over the course of a few range trips I had a couple short strokes each trip. So anyone that simply says it's a training issue is only half right. It might be training, it might be lack of recent practice, it might be trying to go too fast, or it might be picking up a different gun (if I spend a lot of time with the 590 then go to the 870, it has happened). There's a lot more variables than a lot of people consider.
As for number of rounds needed - everyone can view it differently. Take a look at Tom Givens' stats on his students that have been involved in gunfights/ shootings. The #1 determining factor in success or failure is having the gun. Statistics are dangerous. Statically, having a gun is good enough. Take it one step further, statistically, we will never to use our guns to defend ourselves.
I'm comfortable enough with the capacity of a tube fed shotgun compared to the people that feel an AR is the only answer because "muh 30 boolits". I feel comfortable enough that 2-3 good hits will likely do the job, but I'd like to have some for anyone else the guy brought with him. Somewhere around 6-8 in the gun with some on the side sets me up decently even for particularly bad scenarios. That being said, I'm not looking to strap on a war belt or chest rig in the middle of the night.
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Owner of Aridus Industries. Creator of the Q-DC, CROM, and other fun shotgun stuff.
@SpyderMan2k4 Great information, thank you. Well, I definitely won't be doing any proficiency training with a pump in my traveling 5th wheel. So between that and some salient points by George, I guess it sounds like I'd be better off with a semi. Screw it, standard stocked M4 it is.
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