Current State of the Shotgun

[Jay Cunningham]

I've been inspired by recent threads here, posts on FB, my own shotgun classes I teach, and several people I know making great stuff for shotguns, to start this thread in the same vein as the AK thread.

The fighting shotgun circa 2017 is a greatly upgraded beast compared to the basic bitch pump gun one can buy at Wal-Mart for $350... not that there's anything wrong with those.

Let's discuss the current state of the art regarding the guns, ammo, accessories, and employment methods.

Are these beasts on the brink of extinction? Or are they entering a new Golden Age?

Please make your context clear when referring to military, LE, PMC, or private security use vs. civilian applications.

[MickAK]

Civilian.

I can kill someone good and dead with a shotgun at 5-10 yards.

With extensive training and practice, I could kill someone good and dead with a shotgun at up to 100 yards, although there will be a lot more low percentage shots, and optics take a lot more work.

With a reasonable amount of training, I can kill someone 0-300 yards with a carbine, and optics are simplified. With a little more training and practice, I can kill someone up to 600 yards. Recoil is less, ammo costs are less, training takes less work. I have 30 rounds. I have a lighter weapon, or I could.

A hardened slug could take out a vehicle a little easier, maybe. I find this a little hard to believe, but a lot of people don't work on their own coolant systems, so I guess I can see people thinking radiators are resistant to 5.56 rounds, or that loss of coolant or a cylinder or two would really stop a large vehicle within killing range.

Shotguns make that cool click-click noise. They're good at killing birds. If you have to dispatch a large animal, slugs can be beneficial. All I see.

[Peally]

Civilian. Never been anything other than a fancy niche grenade launcher tool to me

[L-2]

SHOTGUNS
The shotgun is still alive in my LE agency in California. With tight budgets the shotgun is present in every patrol car. Over the years, with suggestions from some of us, we’ve gone from a 20” Mossberg 590A1 w/bead sight (the old ones with the heat shield) to a 14” barrel with sling and ghost ring sights.

Still missing is a weapon-light and a side-saddle but there, at least, are four more slugs available in a Speedfeed-brand stock. We’ve always trained with 00 buck and to transition to slugs as needed.

These shotguns generally stay in the patrol car and not individually issued. We can’t personally buy a 14” barreled shotgun, but can buy an 18.5” or longer which is similar enough for practice and to maintain expertise.

20+ years ago, coming out of the police academy, I didn’t understand the shotgun’s use enough for my taste and took additional training on my own time. Only a few others have done so in my agency as far as I’m aware.

Patrol rifles are available, but severely limited by laws & internal policies.

[Rex G]

Houston PD's Low-Light Shotgun class, scheduled for August, filled-up over two months in advance, so I reckon the shotgun is not yet dead in big-city LE, even though the AR15 is the long weapon most visible at hot scenes. The Tactical Shotgun class I attended at the HPD academy in late May, however, was just three students. I did not think to ask if the early May Tactical Shotgun was also lightly-attended. (Tactical Shotgun is taught much more often than Low-Light Shotgun, the latter being specifically a certification to use a Surefire WeaponLight fore-end.)

HPD approves the 870, and Benelli M1 and M2, for duty use. Authorized ammo is 00 and 4 Buck, and slugs. We buy our own firearms, except for less-lethal and some SWAT weapons. My qual with my 870 is still current, but I added a Benelli M2 in time for the Stupid Bowl, and will probably let my 870 qual lapse. I had prior Benelli experience in the early Nineties, with an HK-era M1 Super 90, which had a narrow, sharp-combed stock that thrashed me without mercy. The current M2 Comfortech stock is wonderful, making me wish I had switched back to Benelli much sooner.

An advantage of the shotgun, where I work, is that rifles are to be removed from the case, or rack, during specified circumstances only, whereas the shotgun, for now, anyway, is in my hands at my discretion. I work night shift patrol, a time when the shotgun makes plenty of good sense as the long gun of choice.

I actually bought a take-off, pre-owned, but like-new Benelli M2 Tactical barrel, with open rifle-type sights, several years ago. I live a short drive from a major firearms dealer, where pre-owned Benelli M2 Field guns are available from time to time. The upcoming 2017 Stupid Bowl LI, and the 2016 terrorist incidents involving vehicles being driven into crowds, prompted me to put up or shut up, so I bought my M2 late last year, pre-owned, and installed the "Tactical" barrel, and a lefty recoil pad.

I will probably become a private citizen again, soon, after 33+, or perhaps 34 years, of LEO-ing. I believe that I will still see the shotgun as my favored defensive weapon, particularly home defense. Away from home, densely-vegetated family land, where trepassers have been a problem, is another environment where the shotgun makes sense.

[Lester Polfus]

Civilian on 6 densely wooded acres adjacent to a National Forest. Bears, cougars and assholes are in abundance in the NF. Sasquatch is a possibility.

I'll see your $350 walmart bitch pump gun and raise you a $230 pawn shop gauge, traded straight across for the cheap ass wedding ring from my ill conceived first marriage.

Its my primary defensive long gun and I dont make any apologies for it.

[LockedBreech]

My brother's agency as well as a neighboring agency went full Colt 6920 5-6 years ago. Only shotguns left are one with each shift sergeant for non lethal and one with tac for breaching.


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[voodoo_man]

Ran 870s back in the day and m590a1 now.

We use federal slug and 00buck. It works exceedingly well at barrier penetration and people stopping at 25y and in.

I have one and practice with one for HD and duty work.

Would highly recommend HiTS shotgun class...

[Cory]

Civilian. Prior mil.

I think the shot gun is still very much alive. At least as alive as it has ever been. Where I grew up big game hunting was only allowed using shotguns. Center fired rifles were not legal for hunting. Little pockets like this still exist in some places, and where they exist the shotgun is not only alive but more than thriving. I would say in those regions where rifles are not legal for hunting shotguns are the dominate long gun of choice for nearly everything.

Because I grew up in a place like that, the majority of my youth was behind a shotgun. My brother, and 2 buddies would regularly go out in the woods with our shotguns to do the things teenage boys in the woods do with shotguns. We would squirrel hunt, turkey hunt, deer hunt, clay shoot, target shoot... all with the same shotguns. I used my father's bolt action Western Field 12gauge for the longest time until I bought my 1187 with two barrels. One for light loads (bead sight) one for heavy loads and slug (scope). Because rifles weren't used for hunting in our area, they weren't really used for much at all. We used our shotguns for hunting, fun shooting, and because they were for the most part all we had they were our home defense guns.

The closest thing to a rifle my family owned growing up was my Mom and Dad's matching 12G slug guns. Marlin bolt action, heavy barrel, rifle sight, slug guns with rifling for sabot slugs. My mom's is still probably the most accurate slug gun I've ever seen. We all knew about rifles, and we all had fired a few. But they were essentially just target guns. Nearly everything that required a gun happened with a shotgun. And none of us ever saw a problem with that. We had our Mossberg 500s, 870s, old Winchesters, and the occasional oddball shotgun. And they all worked. The area now allows rifles for hunting, and most choose it for big game. But it doesn't change the fact the shotgun can still fill all those shoes.

I live states away now, and my local club is nearly entirely a shotgun club. The club is reliant on the revenue of their twice weekly trap and skeet shoots. They also do ATA certified shoots. Tons of people show up to shoot. It isn't just a bunch of older guys either. Young shooters are out there learning and loving the sport. It isn't uncommon to see people patterning a new load when you show up at the range. If you think this means the shotgun is only alive here in KY, than I encourage you to ask anyone at your local range if they own a shotgun. I have my bet on how often the answer is yes.

In a defensive aspect, I think the shotgun is still extremely present. Nothing else is as devastatingly effective at short range as a shotgun. It has the ability to inflict an enormous amount of damage. While in the service as an MP we had a handful of Mossberg's in our armory. Why? Because while the shotgun can fill many other weapon's roles, nothing else can fill a shotgun's. Shotguns are extremely versatile but still retain an ability that is unique to them alone. That's why the military is always going to have shotguns in the armory. For riot control, for breeching, for anything that requires powerhouse performance in short order.

While the AR market has certainly made a dent in the fan fair of the shotgun I think it still neck and neck for the go to gun of many. Especially defensively. The old adage of "just buy a 12 gauge pump" although not always the best idea, is still around. Because for most things it will get it done. And people know it. That's why the 1301 thread is 200 pages long. The AR might have more classes and more innovation for products, but it doesn't mean that it has taken over the shotgun. Shotgun classes are still out there, and while not as explosive as the AR market, innovation is happening. Once again, just take a look at the 1301 thread. The shotgun might not be improving at the rate of other weapons but the fact it is improving is undeniable. 3 inch shells. 3.5 inch shells. Flight control. More diverse ammo selections. New recoil systems. Lighter weights. New furniture options. New ammo carrying options.

Shotguns will always be alive because while they can do it all, nothing can do what they do. They may grow slower at times, and may not be as popular at times. But they will always be viable.

-Cory

[Beat Trash]

I grew up with an 870. My agency still has 870's in each car. But I haven't grabbed a shotgun since the patrol rifle became an option 12 years ago. Our 870's are bone stock 18" guns loaded with Federal flight controlled OO buck. Slugs are not an option. No white lights on the shotgun. Smaller officers who are intimidated by the 870 enjoy shooting the AR's. Setting a perimeter around a building from a position of cover might leave the officer 25-30 + yards from a window or door. Kind of a stretch with a OO Buck loaded shotgun holding 4+1 shells. Not an issue with a 16" AR holding 30 rounds...

Within the next year, we will be at the point where there's a Patrol Rifle in every car. There is discussion of dumping the shotguns at that time. I would have a hard time arguing to keep the shotguns.

I still maintain a couple of 870's at the house. But for me, they're for situations where I might have to worry about something with four legs.