Phasing out shotguns?

[TGS]

We have 14" M870Ps that we'll likely keep around for the foreseeable future as we issue them to LEOs from other agencies when they help us on protection details, as they're not qual'd on the Colt SMG.

There is some pretty serious hatred against them, which is a shame as they're a good tool. I can't blame people for not wanting to touch them with a 10 foot pole, though......the duty load is a Winchester Ranger 00 buck which has a horrible pattern that can barely keep pellets on a human torso at 15 yards. The LOP is also incredibly long and makes it very unwieldy and uncomfortable.

If we went to Federal Flight Control and used a shorter LOP stock, I wonder if people might feel differently.

[Totem Polar]

Prolly be down to 80 percent of 870s turned in by this time next year. So should be couple hundred trade-ins available before long...

Please remember your P-F community if those things go public...

[Drang]

Please remember your P-F community if those things go public...

Ditto. Too bad our lords and masters in Olympia didn't pass shirt barrelled shotguns as well as short barreled rifles.

[DpdG]

For my agency, all rank and file are individually issued rifles. Each marked car has an 18" 870 loaded with slugs in a double rack (with the officer's rifle) between the front seats. In addition, each marked car has another 870, loaded with beanbags, in the trunk. The beanbag guns are painted yellow and, by policy, are only to be used for less-lethal.

Earlier this year, my command asked us (the firearms instructors) for our opinion on getting rid of the lethal/slug guns. Given all the equipment is already paid for, the only expense for keeping them is the ammo for annual quals. My thought process was if we didn't already have beanbag guns in every car, then I would be much more amenable to converting the slug guns to less lethal/beanbag. Since the slug guns provide a capability separate from the rifles, and there was little/no benefit to getting
rid of them, we successfully lobbied to keep them.

[SD]

As someone who has witnessed on numerous occasions the effectiveness of a round being racked into the 870, it sends a message everyone understands! Drop the bolt and chamber a round on an AR, and it has no impact. Inner city "Peoples & Folks" understand what a pump action shotgun can do. Remind me again why that .40 we had to have in the 90's is now being replaced by that 9mm we had to start with? Smarter people then me, way above my pay grade making decisions on issues they know nothing about...all this typing has made me thirsty.

[txdpd]

For my agency, all rank and file are individually issued rifles. Each marked car has an 18" 870 loaded with slugs in a double rack (with the officer's rifle) between the front seats. In addition, each marked car has another 870, loaded with beanbags, in the trunk. The beanbag guns are painted yellow and, by policy, are only to be used for less-lethal.

Earlier this year, my command asked us (the firearms instructors) for our opinion on getting rid of the lethal/slug guns. Given all the equipment is already paid for, the only expense for keeping them is the ammo for annual quals. My thought process was if we didn't already have beanbag guns in every car, then I would be much more amenable to converting the slug guns to less lethal/beanbag. Since the slug guns provide a capability separate from the rifles, and there was little/no benefit to getting
rid of them, we successfully lobbied to keep them.

I think it's a terrible idea to have lethal/LTL 12 gauge in the same car or anywhere near each other in the same department, I think 12 gauge LTL is just a terrible idea. That's just setting up someone for epic failure when a live round makes its way into an LTL gun. It's happened before and for what amounted to an innocent mistake, someone got shot that didn't deserve it and officer's life was up ended.

I know money doesn't grow on trees, but a 37 or 40mm launcher will actually work, is more accurate, has a better effective range, has lower risk of penetration, and there's better control over the ammo. I know "liability" gets thrown about pretty casually and we aren't liable for a lot of things we think we are, but 12 gauge LTL is a high liability item and sets officers up for failure.

[DpdG]

I agree the 12g less lethals can be a liability if used incorrectly. We have done the best we can to mitigate those risks be storing them completely independently of the lethal guns, by clearly marking them (knoxx stock vs traditional stock, all furniture yellow), and ensuring the beanbag ammo is administratively loaded into the guns. The troops should not be reloading beanbags in the field, as they are not issued any additional rounds. Without getting too far into tactics, if a person is deploying a beanbag gun, then there are other officers on scene providing lethal cover.

Without a doubt, 37/40mm would be a better less lethal solution. However, they are A) costly, and B) publicly perceived as grenade launchers.

[Rex G]

Houston PD does not issue firearms; we buy our own. The approved shotguns are the 870, and the M1 and M2 Benellis. The number of patrol rifles is increasing, and the number of shotguns is decreasing, based upon what I am seeing. The Low-Light Shotgun class in August, however, filled up over two months beforehand, however, so there are still dedicated shotgunners, willing to spend big money on Surefire Weaponlights for their shotguns. (The only lighting system that meets department specifications for shotguns is the Surefire units, integral with the fore-end.)

I patrol at night, and carry a Benelli M2, having switched from the 870 late last year, in anticipation of the Stupid Bowl. I like the Benelli rifle sights better than anything readily available for the 870, and the 2016 terrorist attacks involving vehicles being driven into crowds were a sign that hardened slugs would be a very good idea.

I missed a mandated two-day patrol rifle update class a few years ago, thanks to a couple of minor injuries, so would have to repeat the whole 40-hour certification class, in order to carry a patrol rifle again. (Finger fracture, in my weapon hand, making weapon-handling extremely painful, and a tweaked knee, making the act of getting to my feet from prone, kneeling, and sitting problematic.) I will let the young bucks get their certifications, in the too-few training slots, because I patrol at night, when a nice shotgun still makes plenty of sense, and I am nearing retirement, anyway. Plus, I am one of the very few officers on my shift who was trained to breach with a shotgun, and the only one among them who actually brings a shotgun to work with me.

If I hear of an un-filled patrol rifle certification/training slot about to go to waste, well, then I may take advantage of it. I would still want to bring my shotgun with me, on patrol, because I can exit the patrol vehicle with it whenever I wish, whereas the rifle can only be pulled from its rack, or case, when specific conditions exist.

[coldcase1984]

I've railed for years about changing to full power hard Brenneke slugs specifically for penetrating cars.

The earlier point about rise of vehicle attacks is well-founded, and could be an argument to keep some 12 ga. weapons around.

We have many outdoor events & festivals in our large and populous county. And have become flooded w people of a certain faith, a minute number of whom might feel compelled to do something like that...

I particularly believe Benelli M2s or Beretta 1301, possibly rifled, would be ideal for punching into large commercial vehicles and other cases where people in cars who are clearly a threat to life and public safety could be fired upon.

Example:

A couple weeks ago, two escaped GA killers fled my agency and took several of our units under fire w stolen Glocks as they screamed down I-24. Two of our cars were hit multiple times as were several citizens' vehicles.

Luckily no one was hurt before they blew the engine of their stolen vehicle and fled on foot under cover of the smoke.

They surrendered an hour or so later.

Short semi auto SGs w hard slugs safely nested on the front passenger seat or floor would have been quicker to access and more effective than our guys' ARs locked in rack while driving 100 mph.

[SeriousStudent]

Please remember your P-F community if those things go public...

Indeed. I would happily buy two more 870 Police Magnums for project guns, if the price was right.