Phasing out shotguns?

[Lon]

But, what's y'alls elevator pitch on them? I want to hear the other side of the argument.

Self admittedly, I've only ever shot mine at clay pigeons for fun.

DpdG hit it on the head. Hard to beat a shotgun w slugs around cars. Or a better up close and personal critter stopper for someone that knows what they're doing. Sadly, most LEOs don't know. There's maybe 10% (I'm being generous) of my agency that can run a shotgun like it should be. Our old SWAT Commander could run a shorty 870 like no one else I've seen. Was his weapon of choice instead of an MP-5.

[Beat Trash]

I agree about the concept of using a shotgun slug around cars.

Unfortunately, slugs were phased out a few years ago, except of course for SWAT.

We're about 1,150 sworn. Each marked car has a stock 18" 870 that has a bead sight and holds four shells. Ammunition is Federal flight controlled OO Buck. No white light and no sling.

The newer Explorers are equipped with a dual shotgun/rifle mount. By the end of the year, we will be close to having a patrol rifle in each marked car. Agency pool AR's and privately owned/department approved AR's. No private owned shotguns permitted.

There is talk of phasing out the shotguns for uniform patrol. (less Lethal and SWAT breaching will always have some) With 25 years on, I'd consider myself a an "Old Fart'. But I have no sentimental attachment to the shotgun. I stopped grabbing the heavy 870 with 4 shots and no white light 12 years ago once a Patrol Rifle became an option. Especially when taking a perimeter on the exterior of a building where available cover may place me 25-40 yards for the window/door that I'm covering. Kind of a long shot for OO buck. Kind of child's play with an AR.

[TGS]

For you guys with slugs, how many of your departments are actually issuing Brenneke or Truball Deep Penetrator slugs instead of common foster type?

As I understand it, most of the advantages for using a slug gun around cars are sort of a wash compared to 5.56 bonded JSP loads.

[Rex G]

I'm one of those millennials that think the shotgun is unnecessary.... (because can't an AR do the same thing while being faster to reload, easier to shoot, less recoil, more ammo onboard, penetration, etc)?


But, what's y'alls elevator pitch on them? I want to hear the other side of the argument.




Self admittedly, I've only ever shot mine at clay pigeons for fun.

Nothing wrong with an AR, and plenty right with them, but:

1. An AR15 cannot breach a door lock or hinge nearly as well as can a breaching load or buckshot. Keep in mind that breaching is not only for warrant service; it can be important for reaching victims during a homicide-in-progress/active shooter. (Remember, VA Tech!) Breaching may also be a quick way OUT of a building, too.

2. Properly-selected, hardened slugs will generally perform better against targets inside vehicles, especially compared to the JSP ammo that most police departments mandate for patrol rifles in populated areas.

3. My personal situation: I aged-out of our timed, athletic patrol rifle qual. I can still qual with a shotgun while standing on my hind legs. The patrol rifle qual has become a bit kinder and gentler, so I might well be about to qual now, but my certification lapsed, when I missed a two-day update class, so I would have to repeat the whole 40-hour cert class. This late in my career, I might as well let the young bucks get the too-few training slots in the too-rare cert classes. (If I am offered a last-minute spot, about to be wasted due to a cancellation, I will take it.)

4. My PD policy: A patrol rifle must remain cased, in the truck, or locked in the Setina rack of the newer patrol vehicles, unless specific special threat criteria are known to exist. I can step from the vehicle with my shotgun at my discretion, and working straight nights, I take advantage of this, often. (Body-worn video cameras do record our actions, and supervisors are tasked with looking for policy violations while reviewing the videos.)

5. I wear two slugs in a kydex-ish carrier on my right epaulet. This is so very cool. An AR magazine is a bit too heavy to hang on an epaulet. (I shoot long guns lefty, so slugs on my right epaulet are handy for direct-loading onto the carrier, through the ejection port of a right-handed shotgun.)

[Edster]

5. I wear two slugs in a kydex-ish carrier on my right epaulet. This is so very cool.

That it is.

[stinx]

I agree the 12g less lethals can be a liability if used incorrectly. We have done the best we can to mitigate those risks be storing them completely independently of the lethal guns, by clearly marking them (knoxx stock vs traditional stock, all furniture yellow), and ensuring the beanbag ammo is administratively loaded into the guns. The troops should not be reloading beanbags in the field, as they are not issued any additional rounds. Without getting too far into tactics, if a person is deploying a beanbag gun, then there are other officers on scene providing lethal cover.

Without a doubt, 37/40mm would be a better less lethal solution. However, they are A) costly, and B) publicly perceived as grenade launchers.

When we had 870 for less lethal, those officers that were carrying the LL 870 were not allowed to carry a live shotgun or ammo in their car ,duty bag etc, they were issued a patrol rifle. Our admin thought allowing the carrying of live shotgun rounds was an accident waiting to happen. WE since have transitioned to 40mm launchers for Less/Lethal. YMMV

[LSP552]

For general all-around issue, I like a patrol rifle over a shotgun. But there are times when a shotgun really is the tool of choice. Around vehicles with slugs, and close range against unarmored bad guys it's pretty tough to beat. I don't know how many high-risk warrants I run with a 14" 870 with SureFire light, sling and side saddle. It's pretty much idea for that situation.

[Rex G]

For you guys with slugs, how many of your departments are actually issuing Brenneke or Truball Deep Penetrator slugs instead of common foster type?

As I understand it, most of the advantages for using a slug gun around cars are sort of a wash compared to 5.56 bonded JSP loads.

I bought my Brenneke slugs, when I could find them. My newer slugs are Truball Deep Penetrators, which I found at GT Distributors.

[K.O.A.M.]

We just purchased 550 Sig M400's for patrol rifles for the entire agency. Previously, Remington 870's were issued to each deputy assigned to our Neighborhood Policing division, but every member of the agency had to annually qualify with an 870.

Post rifle roll out, shotguns will be optional and qualification with a shotgun will no longer be required for personnel who are not issued an 870 or have permission to use a personally owned shotgun. Mine still goes with me if I an in a cruiser, as we have the dual mount. I have slugs in the tube and on the side saddle.

[SamAdams]

How many of y'all's departments are doing this?

Most every officer at my 250-sworn now has an AR.

So we're now telling officers at yearly in-service they can just turn SGs in if they like and the armory is filling up!

This is also being done in order to possibly fund issued G43 BUGs, which may be a good thing as majority of our Millenials and NDPs don't carry BUG or OD! The same people who whine about the 10-rd. yearly 12-ga. "qual"!

I'm holding onto my 12.5-in. 870P until they force me turn it in!

Love my issued Commando, but 870 is a power tool this old fart wants handy!

Is yours a urban or a rural agency ?

Thanks


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro