New gun, new trigger, or keep fighting the good fight?

[spinmove_]

If you actually are thinking you will be shooting people at 25 yards, you better have one darn good lawyer. Your approach to this is wholly unrealistic.

I'll let the situation, my ability to make rational and logical decisions based on that situation, and my training determine whether or not I'll ever have need of making that kind of shot.

Until then, let's stay on the topic of the mechanics and employed fundamentals of objectively measuring if I need to make a change or not.

As stated earlier I'll be doing some further evaluation before coming to a more solid conclusion, which will be far and away ahead of making any purchases.


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[NickS]

I'll let the situation, my ability to make rational and logical decisions based on that situation, and my training determine whether or not I'll ever have need of making that kind of shot.

Until then, let's stay on the topic of the mechanics and employed fundamentals of objectively measuring if I need to make a change or not.

As stated earlier I'll be doing some further evaluation before coming to a more solid conclusion, which will be far and away ahead of making any purchases.


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Honestly, you seem intent of ignoring a lot of great advice you have received in this thread. Standing quietly at an indoor range shooting deliberate strings of seven shots at a target 25 yards away is not training for a fight at 25 yards, period. Your ability to hit a target at that distance under the conditions you are shooting have nearly nothing to do with your ability to do it under stress in any real-world situation. That you do not realize that is what may well get you and somebody else killed some day. And NO, you do not need to make a change with your handgun.

Why? It's about the Indian, not the arrow.

[spinmove_]

Honestly, you seem intent of ignoring a lot of great advice you have received in this thread.

First, standing quietly and still at an indoor range shooting deliberate strings of seven shots at a target 25 yards away is not training for a fight at 25 yards, period. Your ability to hit a target at that distance under the conditions you are shooting have nearly nothing with your ability to do it under stress in any real-world situation. That you do not realize that is what may well get you are somebody else killed some day.

But, good luck to you.

And NO, you do not need to make a change with your handgun.

Why, because it is not about the arrow, but about the Indian.

So me telling you to stay on topic vs. delving into justifying whether or not taking a 25 yard shot in any given random self defense scenario is legally and/or morally justified is blatantly ignoring great advice? I would respectfully disagree. Furthermore, if you read one of my previous posts to this one you would see that I took the time to re-read the responses that I got and fully acknowledged that I needed to listen to and digest the advice that I was given.

Never did I say nor insinuate that standing on a square range shooting for groups at 25 yards was "training for a fight". Shooting groups at 25 yards is a metric. Shooting groups at 25 yards timed is another and different metric. Shooting the El Presidente drill is a metric. Shooting a Bill Drill is a metric. Shooting a Failure 2 Stop drill is a metric. We use metrics to gauge performance. So no, it's not that I don't realize what you're saying, it's that you think I'm assuming something that you're assuming. What happened in this thread is that I drew a premature conclusion based on a singular metric from a single point in a non-scientific fashion. I was given advice, I listened to that advice, and am now proceeding in a more logical manner. I don't care if you think I'll ever have to make a self-defense shot at 25 yards or not. That's not relevant to this discussion nor was it ever brought up prior to your post. If you wish to discuss this particular point further, create a new thread or send me a PM, please.

I understand that it's about the Indian and not the Arrow. However there are some on this board that will argue in favor of user to hardware fitment that know a thing or two about a thing or two. I was simply looking to figure out (again, prematurely as stated earlier in this post) if that was POSSIBLY what could be going on here.

I do appreciate everyone that is willing to share their thoughts and advice, including you. I would just appreciate it if your responses were less accusatory before having all of the details on hand.

[NickS]

So me telling you to stay on topic vs. delving into justifying whether or not taking a 25 yard shot in any given random self defense scenario is legally and/or morally justified is blatantly ignoring great advice?

Do whatever you want, guy. You have all the advice you need already in this thread. Take it or leave it, makes no difference to me.

[psalms144.1]

I'll try to get back on target (see what I did there?). I carry a Gen4 G19 whenever I'm at work, a Gen4 G26 on the ankle as BUG or primary off duty, with rare exceptions when I carry a G43 (pocket carry to the doctor, for instance). I have to work harder to shoot it with precision than any other pistol in my safe (VP9, 1911, P7M8, P07, a bunch of round guns, etc). Why do I still carry it as a primary?

-Size efficiency #1 - because to me, more rounds on board is always a good thing.
-Weight - because I'm getting older, fatter and lazier all the time, and hauling around any extra weight on the belt is getting more irritating.
-Reliability - with the rare exception of a BTF, this G19 has never bobbled, failed or flubbed in any way.
-Sights/holsters - I can get EXACTLY the sights I prefer on the Glock, and exactly the holster I want with the Glock - not so much with the others.
-Maintenance - if anything WERE to break, I'm a simple punch and a bag of inexpensive spare parts away from back in action. Parts are so inexpensive that replacing all the springs on an annual basis is cheap - and super easy to pull off.
-Cost - if I ever have to use the pistol at work or for SD/HD, I know it's going into evidence for a while (the pistols my guys used at the Washington Navy Yard shooting are STILL in evidence - coming up on 4 years later). I can get a replacement Glock damn near anywhere for a relative song. Mags are plentiful and cheap.

If I want to show off on the range, the G19 is NOT the pistol I'll pick. But, I can still do what needs doing at 25 yards if I take my time and focus. Realistically, if my only target is the size of a 3x5 and it's way out at the edge of my visual acuity range, I'd have to think REALLY hard before pressing that trigger - because every round you shoot has a lawyer attached to it...

[Robinson]

I wouldn't let 25 yard groups determine my choice in a carry gun. I think you should shoot the SP2022 a bunch more at moderate distances and then decide which pistol you actually have more confidence in when it comes to your ability to use it effectively. And this would take into account shooting performance as well as other factors such as reliable function and carry method.

[WobblyPossum]

Does the Sig do anything else for you better than the G19 or is it just the 25y grouping issue?


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[spinmove_]

Does the Sig do anything else for you better than the G19 or is it just the 25y grouping issue?


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As stated earlier, that is unknown. Having re-evaluated as per the multitude of recommendations, I'll be putting the SP2022 through its paces. I was just shocked at what I was able to do with it.

While the SP2022 is ever so slightly larger (still smaller than an M&P9 fs) and slightly heavier (something like 4oz), it isn't the only option I'd ultimately consider. Time and data will tell.


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[spinmove_]

I'll try to get back on target (see what I did there?). I carry a Gen4 G19 whenever I'm at work, a Gen4 G26 on the ankle as BUG or primary off duty, with rare exceptions when I carry a G43 (pocket carry to the doctor, for instance). I have to work harder to shoot it with precision than any other pistol in my safe (VP9, 1911, P7M8, P07, a bunch of round guns, etc). Why do I still carry it as a primary?

-Size efficiency #1 - because to me, more rounds on board is always a good thing.
-Weight - because I'm getting older, fatter and lazier all the time, and hauling around any extra weight on the belt is getting more irritating.
-Reliability - with the rare exception of a BTF, this G19 has never bobbled, failed or flubbed in any way.
-Sights/holsters - I can get EXACTLY the sights I prefer on the Glock, and exactly the holster I want with the Glock - not so much with the others.
-Maintenance - if anything WERE to break, I'm a simple punch and a bag of inexpensive spare parts away from back in action. Parts are so inexpensive that replacing all the springs on an annual basis is cheap - and super easy to pull off.
-Cost - if I ever have to use the pistol at work or for SD/HD, I know it's going into evidence for a while (the pistols my guys used at the Washington Navy Yard shooting are STILL in evidence - coming up on 4 years later). I can get a replacement Glock damn near anywhere for a relative song. Mags are plentiful and cheap.

If I want to show off on the range, the G19 is NOT the pistol I'll pick. But, I can still do what needs doing at 25 yards if I take my time and focus. Realistically, if my only target is the size of a 3x5 and it's way out at the edge of my visual acuity range, I'd have to think REALLY hard before pressing that trigger - because every round you shoot has a lawyer attached to it...

Yup, agreed on all points. I just wish it were easier to get longer distance hits with this thing.


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[45dotACP]

If you actually are thinking you will be shooting people at 25 yards, you better have one darn good lawyer. Your approach to this is wholly unrealistic.

Yeah...it's not like the distance to first base is about 25 yards away or so...and nobody's been in a shooting on a baseball diamond...

Like ever...

Recently.

There is value in shooting at distance. But under a clock, with concealment...like all practice should be. It need not be the greatest allotment of your practice, but it's wise to know where you hit and how to make accurate hits at distance...the level of trigger control, sight alignment etc...that goes into making a hit under stress. Lately, there's a lot of assholes with rifles doing asshole stuff. If I'm cornered by one of those guys, I want hits as soon as possible because closing the distance and killing the asshole means something else when my max distance is 50 yards compared to 10.

I shoot Berettas now because I shoot them better than Glock...but I shoot, manipulate, and otherwise handle 1911s far and above better than anything else.

I don't carry 1911s because I see value in a bigger stack of BBs...