VP9 dead trigger due to impact issue (split from Personal SIG 320 Journey thread)

[breakingtime91]

Drop safe is generally that the gun will not discharge unintentionally if dropped.

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I think he is asking from what height... Rich is a pretty intelligent guy, I think he understands the idea.

[RJ]

True, but in fairness to Dr. No, Rich did say this:



which is not accurate.

Gotcha. How about this:

In regard to this statement in the CA DOJ drop test pdf: "the handgun has been rendered incapable of firing a primed case".

I am asking, is this statement and a 'dead trigger' essentially the same thing or no?

[breakingtime91]

True, but in fairness to Dr. No, Rich did say this:



which is not accurate.

Did not check into the accuracy of his statements, just seemed like a common sense answer to a question that was modeled around a more in-depth question. I would be interested to know the force needed to drop the striker (on the ones that did drop) from the nylon hammer compared to a drop from holster or presentation height onto concrete. I would think that more force would happen because the drop than the nylon hammer but I'm not a engineer

[RJ]

Did not check into the accuracy of his statements, just seemed like a common sense answer to a question that was modeled around a more in-depth question. I would be interested to know the force needed to drop the striker (on the ones that did drop) from the nylon hammer compared to a drop from holster or presentation height onto concrete. I would think that more force would happen because the drop than the nylon hammer but I'm not a engineer

Exactly what I am trying to determine.

Comparing force of a 1.5 lb weight (the VP9) dropped 1m vs impact of a 10 oz nylon hammer swung smartly from 12". Used to be I could have computed this, but that was when dinosaurs walked the earth.

[octagon]

In the spirit of lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness, could anyone comment on how 'drop tests' are conducted?

I found one after a quick search; on the Cali DOJ web site:

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...s/chapter5.pdf

It specifies five drops, gun perpendicular to the surface, onto concrete from a height of 1m, loaded with a primer cap.

The test states "After each of the first five drop tests the DOJ-Certified Laboratory shall determine whether the handgun has been rendered incapable of firing a primed case prior to conducting the next drop test. If so, the handgun model shall either be repaired, or the test shall be stopped..."

The way I read this, a VP9 which failed as per the OPs video would fail the CA drop test.

I guess I have a few questions, mainly for my own education, being new to guns.

1) Is my assessment above correct?

2) Is a repeated 1m drop onto concrete a recognized standard for drop tests across the gun industry?

3) If not, what do manufacturers generally mean when they say a gun is 'drop safe'?

Thanks.

From my perspective that drop test would not drop the striker in the H&K VP9 as shown earlier. It states perpendicular to the ground so the gun would hit muzzle down or back of slide down to be perpendicular. If the gun is parallel to the ground and dropped it may be closer to the test VP9 failure shown.

[KPD]

Okay, I wailed on my VP9 and could not reproduce this and got nothing. 2014 production with around 2K rounds through it.

[GJM]

The issue I had with the Walther PPQ Q5, was the striker releasing when I aggressively seated the magazines during slide forward magazine changes. That it only happened to one of my multiple Q5 pistols, suggested tolerance variation, rather than a systemic design problem.

While I wouldn't lose sleep over hitting a VP9 with a specific hammer in a specific method, I would be concerned if seating a mag aggressively caused the striker to drop, because that is an example of a time you might like the good to run right then. No idea if this would also cause some VP9 pistols to release their striker, but I would want to know if they did, if I depended on them.

[Rick_ICT]

I present the fix for this entire thread:

If your gun doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger, tap the bottom of the magazine to ensure it's seated, and rack the slide to recock and reload the chamber. Proceed with your business.

You're welcome to tip, but it's not necessary.

Now can we please stop hitting our guns with hammers?

You're welcome.

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But that's what started this whole mess!

Oh, wait... you didn't mean with a hammer, did you?


The way the gun is designed, this will always be possible if you are willing to hit the gun hard enough while holding it near the muzzle so the rear of the gun can really move on impact. You could make it "practically" impossible by increasing the compression resistance of the catch spring to the point that it would take an Olympic weight lifter swinging a sledge hammer to cause the spring to compress on impact. But then you go from one of the nicest SFA triggers on the market to some monstrosity with a 15+lb trigger pull.

My opinion is that if you are holding a loaded weapon by the muzzle and using the butt of the gun as an impact tool/weapon, your day is already so far off the rails you probably needn't worry about this niggling, remote possibility. And I'm not sure that would even cause the malfunction, but I am unwilling to treat my VP9 that way to test it, loaded or not. To the best of my knowledge no one has been able to cause the malfunction while gripping the gun in anything like the proper manner.

[farscott]

I had this issue (trigger would occasionally not reset during live fire) with an full size M&P40 about a decade ago. I called S&W and they had me send it in (they provided a shipping label). A few days later it was back at my house with the problem fixed. I have no idea what they changed, probably a spring or two. I suspect this "issue" with the VP9 is similar and can be fixed in a similar fashion. If my VP9s did this (the one I beat on with a hammer doesn't and I'm not going to beat on the others), I'd call HK and let them take care of it.

Not an S&W engineer, but my understanding is that S&W fitted a much stronger/larger spring and a revised sear housing block to hold said spring. The really interesting thing with the M&P dead trigger was that a gun would be fine for several hundred or more rounds, then sporadically exhibit the dead trigger during live fire (never during dry fire), and then the occurrence of the issue would increase to such a point as to make the pistol essentially an impact weapon. I have to wonder if the VP9 issue will start as a once in a while issue that becomes a more likely than not issue for those pistols that do exhibit the issue.

[Rick_ICT]

Not an S&W engineer, but my understanding is that S&W fitted a much stronger/larger spring and a revised sear housing block to hold said spring. The really interesting thing with the M&P dead trigger was that a gun would be fine for several hundred or more rounds, then sporadically exhibit the dead trigger during live fire (never during dry fire), and then the occurrence of the issue would increase to such a point as to make the pistol essentially an impact weapon. I have to wonder if the VP9 issue will start as a once in a while issue that becomes a more likely than not issue for those pistols that do exhibit the issue.

But just to keep everything in context, I've seen no one report or point to any reports anywhere of a VP with a dead trigger under any circumstance other than when whacking on the butt of the gun with a hammer while holding it in a certain bizarre fashion. Examples of other guns having that issue have been brought up in the thread, but to my recollection no one has claimed this has ever happened to a VP outside of the bizarre set up laid out in the OP. And I know many people are using them in competition with crazy high round counts and they are used in some duty capacities. Still, no reports of a VP with a dead trigger under normal use that I have seen mentioned.