Split times

[Clusterfrack]

And training to control recoil and track sights at the .20 split and faster level to hit an 8" circle at 7 yards translates into a slowing of perception of a gunfight to enable hitting tight targets, probably moving while avoiding collateral damage? Bear with me but I do not see the connection. I see the connection with experience and precision capability but not with GM level splits.

This is an interesting discussion! I don't have a definitive answer for several reasons. Thankfully, I've never been in a gunfight. Also, I can only speak from my own perspective. As well, lots of skills develop with USPSA type practice, not any single one. What I've noticed as I've advanced is that my vision/perception has changed so I'm seeing more and faster. That appears to help in defensive classwork and sim scenarios. Things just seem to be slower. E.g. there's more "time" to decide if it's a gun or a cell phone.

As for the shooting, it's become easier to see the sight arc and know they've settled enough for another shot.

Is that all from shooting sub 2s Bills? Hardly.

Let's keep discussing!

[45dotACP]

It's interesting, because I've been told that fast splits only come into play for guys and gals at the upper levels of the game.

Splits are for show. Transitions are for go. And (applying it to a street encounter) the draw itself is a transition in and of itself. Sure, Ben Stoeger, Alex Gutt, Hwansik Kim and all the other high level shooters can split like a crazy man, but if you watch, their true speed is in making transitions.

So...how important are fast splits even for gaming? If I'm getting it right, Bill Drills are used mostly to improve shot calling/sight tracking, not particularly split speed...granted it's important to develop split speed, but how important?

[octagon]

Something that I didn't see mentioned or missed in my quick scanning of the posts is how accuracy and splits may translate to success or failure in defensive shooting. As an example say person A can shoot .25 splits and gets all hits on a torso of an attacker. No arm or leg hits and no edge hits but all on the torso. Person B shoots .50 splits but can keep all hits in a 6 inch high center chest area. Does one have an advantage over the other in real life shooting success?

No shots on a person are going to make them feel better,shoot better or be less stressed. Even shots that miss may have a negative effect on the person being shot at for their accuracy and stress. However we all know that the sooner a shot is fired that strikes the heart,major arteries/vessels or central nervous system the sooner the threat will stop for sure.

You can use any splits you like to compare. Sooner or later they are equal and sooner or later the slower more precise will become too slow and the faster less accurate will become too inaccurate regardless of the split times. Both ways need balance but where that balance makes the most sense I don't know.

[breakingtime91]

Something that I didn't see mentioned or missed in my quick scanning of the posts is how accuracy and splits may translate to success or failure in defensive shooting. As an example say person A can shoot .25 splits and gets all hits on a torso of an attacker. No arm or leg hits and no edge hits but all on the torso. Person B shoots .50 splits but can keep all hits in a 6 inch high center chest area. Does one have an advantage over the other in real life shooting success?

No shots on a person are going to make them feel better,shoot better or be less stressed. Even shots that miss may have a negative effect on the person being shot at for their accuracy and stress. However we all know that the sooner a shot is fired that strikes the heart,major arteries/vessels or central nervous system the sooner the threat will stop for sure.

You can use any splits you like to compare. Sooner or later they are equal and sooner or later the slower more precise will become too slow and the faster less accurate will become too inaccurate regardless of the split times. Both ways need balance but where that balance makes the most sense I don't know.

I think its important to mention that some people don't care that they are being shot, some may turn and run when the first round is fired. I have heard enough stories and seen enough in my life to realize that there is no certain thing when shooting/ attempting to incapacitate someone. So my intention, if I can, is to destroy the two little fist sized points that will turn someone off. So I think I would be in the slower camp? that convenient since I am not very good

[Tamara]

As an example say person A can shoot .25 splits and gets all hits on a torso of an attacker. No arm or leg hits and no edge hits but all on the torso.

We're talking .25 A-zone hits...

[octagon]

Maybe I don't understand what the OP is asking. Are we discussing competition or real life defensive shooting? Are we discussing A zone hits at .25 splits and the difference between .25 splits and .33,.50.whatever splits all with A zone hits? Is it A zone hits or the 2 fist size areas that stop a threat the fastest and most positively regardless of how the person shot feels,thinks or what drugs or chemicals are in their system? Can the OP clarify since there are posts on defensive shooting and competition throughout the thread.

[breakingtime91]

talking about defensive shooting. Competition was brought up as a great way to practice things that are relevant in real world encounters.

[Dagga Boy]

In a mindset and tactics section of the forum, a split times discussion is useless without a discussion of evaluation and assessment speed. From a purely technical shooting standpoint, split times is a tool to evaluate certain aspects of technical shooting. If you are concerned with shooting non-assessed targets as fast as possible, then split times matter. If we are talking any kind of use of lethal force involving humans in the United States, I find it totally useless as a focus after deeply studying and being involved in this stuff for over three decades. The balance of evaluation speed,shot delivery if needed, assessment speed and a continuation of this process as needed based purely on target reaction is a more complex issues where there are likely not going to be hard numbers. I have seen first hand how extremely fast evaluation and assement skills will trump trigger manipulation speed in encounters unrelated to sport shooting priorities.
As far as split times go as a discussion on mechanics....whatever Gabe wrote is what I would be reading.

[Tamara]

A very popular test with members of this forum is the FAST.

The guys who do really good on it are able to shoot blazing fast splits on the 8" circle, and yet are also able to throttle back their speed to get 100% hits on the much more challenging 3x5 card...

[Hambo]

I really liked how Robert Vogel addressed this in his recent interview. He said (very close) "Look what really happens. There are a lot of dash cam videos out there these days. What do you usually see? You usually see the officer who just got shot at pulls the gun and shoots as fast as he can. Ideally we should shoot as fast as we can hit the target but when it goes south like that most people shoot as fast as they can. So the question is do you train to shoot as fast you can?"
That is why split times matter

Or you could train to control yourself, get the front sight on target, and put a few stopping hits on the guy. If you want to find out how relevant/irrelevant splits are, get some force on force training.