recoil management with carbines

[JDB]

Gents,
I would really like to hear a detailed discussion about carbine recoil management. There's plenty of that out there about pistols, with folks going full geek about all the little nuances and subtleties there. I get that, have applied it, and am satisfied.
But carbines...not so much. Yes, assume a semi squared up athletic stance, spread your base out front to back/side to side, favor forward leg, enough weight forward bias.


I don't get to shoot a lot of rounds through a 5.56. And its all through stock M4s...so no compensators.

With a pistol, I get plenty of practice, but basically believe that I can just hold the gun high and grip hard, and that alone can minimize recoil, speed recovery.

With a rifle, gripping hard pulling the gun back into the shoulder hard doesn't seem to matter much (after a point). I can't tell much difference between pull-pull (pulling with both hands, ala Mike Pannone), push-pull (Rob Haught shotgun technique), pull and let support hand grip/hang (Frank Proctor). Haven't experimented enough with stock placement (more towards center chest, or out towards pocket and more bladed), high/or low stock placement. I'm getting more dot movement than I'd like, and too slow recovery.

Unfortunately, I don't get a lot of rounds to figure this out, and I don't want to burn in too many bad reps in dryfire if I'm going to radically change my technique.

Anyway, Surf, SeanM, etc...any thoughts on this? Especially for us poor schmucks using issue M4s, Aimpoints, PEQ-15s. FWIW, I'm 5'5", 155 lbs and strong.


Thanks in advance

James

[Peally]

I'm certainly not an expert but pulling it into your shoulder and getting your hands up towards the muzzle seems to be about all you can really do. Compared to a pistol gripping a rifle is a pretty straightforward affair considering all the points of contact with your body.

[breakingtime91]

I'm certainly not an expert but pulling it into your shoulder and getting your hands up towards the muzzle seems to be about all you can really do. Compared to a pistol gripping a rifle is a pretty straightforward affair considering all the points of contact with your body.

To expand on this, I put my thumb over the top of the rail. While it wouldn't seem to make a huge difference, I have a perceived increase in recoil control by doing the "thumb over bore" grip. Pretty much a C-clam, I know Defoor teaches it. Funny thing is I came about it the same exact way he did, using IR lasers in the military put your thumb right there at 12 o clock, so I kept my thumb there while shooting.

[Unobtanium]

Thumb over bore helps, draw it like a bow (push/pull). Use your face on the stock as extended as it can be to further control the weapon.

My .308, me, and shitty transitions, demonstrating:

[CCT125US]

I use Jack's technique, it served me well in the carbine course put on by him and SeanM.

I am 5'0", 125lbs

https://youtu.be/gY6MR62hYec

[JDB]

I use Jack's technique, it served me well in the carbine course put on by him and SeanM.

I am 5'0", 125lbs

https://youtu.be/gY6MR62hYec

Does F2S recommend that with lighter guns as well? My understanding was it helps with shotguns and others higher recoil, but maybe not so beneficial with 5.56 guns? Curious what he recommends as a general purpose technique for M4s with the average infantryman.

Also, what drills he would take for the average soldier, who may only get a couple hundred rounds to develop technique. cadence drills? Bill drill variations?

Ultimately this is stuff I need to be able to demonstrate and train with typical infantrymen.

For reference, I cleaned the 1/2 1/2 (shot on a B-8) once...barely. Don't think I could repeat it. Took a class with Proctor once, and was the only guy who's dot moved off target in recoil. Then again, only guy without a compensator (using a Smith Vortex flash hider).

Anyway, not satisfied. Maybe I just need to dedicate 1000 rounds to and just go experiment with bill drills.

[JDB]

Just saw this from Kyle Lamb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSY1t_dR2iA

Haven't really thought about how much pressure I put on the gun with my face, will have to consciously try this.

[Odin Bravo One]

And you owned your rifle well.

Size isn't a factor until it is. But all size does is allow the bigger guy to be sloppy in situations where the smaller person needs to be on point with their technique.

I'll try to get back to this later tonight as well. If I forget, someone remind me.

[schüler]

If Sean M and JDB didn't take care of this offline, I'd like to hear what Sean has to say.

JDB, Proctor has historically done an excellent job of explaining offhand long gun stability from hands to legs and everything in between. Was it not covered in the class you took? Or do his methods not seem to apply to your unique situation?

I'm no flyweight and I have a lightweight AR that will walk all over me if I stand there like I'm on the dumb end of a measuring tape. Have to build that body tension bridge between hands and legs.