44 May be Special. But Not for Defense!

[Tokarev]

Let's not forget penetration. Our large or small diameter bullet must be able to reach vital organs and major blood vessels.

Our small 9mm that penetrates through to the heart will outperform our 44SPL with a soft lead bullet that breaks apart after hitting ribs or other bones.

Tissue disruption won't really matter unless the tissue being disrupted is directly related to the CNS. At least not for rapid incapacitation. Dying a week after from infection or renal failure doesn't count.

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[QED]

Let's not forget penetration. Our large or small diameter bullet must be able to reach vital organs and major blood vessels.

Our small 9mm that penetrates through to the heart will outperform our 44SPL with a soft lead bullet that breaks apart after hitting ribs or other bones.

Tissue disruption won't really matter unless the tissue being disrupted is directly related to the CNS. At least not for rapid incapacitation. Dying a week after from infection or renal failure doesn't count.

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No one is making a point that bullet construction and penetration do not matter; vital organ/s disruption is, of course, the most effective method of incapacitating anyone. If you can destroy the CNS of your attacker, don't bother with anything else, of course. Tissue (even non-vital) disruption really matters, for most people anyway, because it's traumatic -- even when a very small percentage of body tissue is disrupted. Slapping most people on each side of their face will not stop most people from attacking you; break both of their zygomatic arches and most people will cease their aggressive actions against you; neither case is physiologically incapacitating but the latter is obviously more traumatic, leading, most likely, to different resultant behavior.

[QED]

Are you saying that the .44 Spl. is almost 50% more effective then the .40 S&W? An expanded .40 is going to have more "effective bullet area" then a non-expanded .44.

No, almost 50% more disruption does not imply almost 50% more "effective." As previously implied, there are too many variables to quantify the probability of incapacitation as a function of small to moderate amount of non-vital tissue disruption. Yes, .40 cal (and .45 ACP) certainly seems more effective for self-defense than .44 special (all within SAAMI).

[Velo Dog]

If the 44 spl RN bullets caused mayhem, I'm laying money on the shooter doing a good job, not so much the awesomeness of the RN bullets, despite being awesomely 44 caliber and all.

The more I read people like doc Roberts, the less difference I expect in effect between handgun rounds. If they penetrate far enough, have a not streamlined profile, and are 0.3-0.5 in diameter, I just don't attach much credibility to the idea that they will reliably do anything different to a target.

It's been a while since I've read Duncan Macpherson's book Bullet Penetration, but I seem to remember that he thought the biggest advantage of the larger pistol calibers may simply be the ability to use heavier bullets; the greater mass aiding penetration.

I also think he explained why theories on incapacitation tend to assume less than ideal bullet placement. A direct hit of the heart or upper spine will be devastating regardless of caliber.

[QED]

It's been a while since I've read Duncan Macpherson's book Bullet Penetration, but I seem to remember that he thought the biggest advantage of the larger pistol calibers may simply be the ability to use heavier bullets; the greater mass aiding penetration.

"The advantage of a larger caliber is almost entirely related to the practicality of using a heavier bullet."

[entropy]

Late to the show on this, but in regards to factory available options for a 3" Ruger GP, what would be the recommended? The Speer GD or a nice heavy wadcutter??

[Tokarev]

Late to the show on this, but in regards to factory available options for a 3" Ruger GP, what would be the recommended? The Speer GD or a nice heavy wadcutter??

For me the choice would likely depend on my AOR. If I was hiking in back country I'd probably opt for a heavy lead wadcutter from Buffalo Bore. Or handload an equivalent. If I was carrying the gun in an urban setting and/or CCW role I'd opt for the Speer Gold Dot.


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[entropy]

I have a nice 240gr LSWC load for the woods (7.5 Unique) that shoots REALLY well out of it. (Like yours, it likes the .431s.) I will pick up a box of the 200gr GoldDot Blazers and keep my fingers crossed that they shoot decent. Thanks.

[xcop]

Buffalo Bore also makes a nice 200gr hard cast wadcutter listed at 1000fps.

[Tokarev]

Here's a fairly interesting piece on penetration:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...verpenetration