44 May be Special. But Not for Defense!

[Tokarev]

A bit of info on CUP vs PSI:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/am...addata_200905/

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[Tokarev]

Here is a good list of "hot" 44 Special ammo. Note that the Category Two loads are listed at 22,000 psi max and include the 7.5gr of Unique. It actually lists 8.5gr max with this bullet.

I don't know how these pressures were tested. I assume Mr. Pearce used Quickload to assist with the data.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...RLDO-zO9EPALuA

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[richiecotite]

I have tried the Speer 210gr Gold Dot but it won't open at standard Special velocities since it is designed specifically for the Magnum. I have pushed this bullet up above 1,000fps and it shoots well up in this area but it still won't open reliably. I haven't tried pushing it to 1,200fps but it might work well at that velocity.


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I emailed Speer asking about velocity window for best expansion for the 210 gr .410 deep curl hollow point (same Bullet that was loaded in their gold Dot line that was discontinued a few years ago). Rep told me about 1250-1350 fps.

I know it's not the same Bullet and caliber, but I'd imagine their damn near kissing cousins as far as velocity and expansion go.


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[Tokarev]

I emailed Speer asking about velocity window for best expansion for the 210 gr .410 deep curl hollow point (same Bullet that was loaded in their gold Dot line that was discontinued a few years ago). Rep told me about 1250-1350 fps.

I know it's not the same Bullet and caliber, but I'd imagine their damn near kissing cousins as far as velocity and expansion go.


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That's probably about right. I'm just not comfortable pushing the 210gr much faster without something like Quickload to at least use as a guide.

The bullet shoots great and would probably be an outstanding Special bullet if it can safely be driven to the 1200+ fps needed for expansion.

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[QED]

From everything I've been able to glean on the subject, it seems to go something like this: There are two roughly fist sized spots on the human body, connected by a 1" wide bony strip, where a pistol bullet will have good effect. If you put a pistol bullet through those spots, it doesn't seem to matter much what kind of pistol bullet it is. If you put a pistol bullet someplace other than those spots, it doesn't seem to matter much what kind it is, either.

Expansion seems to be a sign that the bullet is going to be found in dude's clothes on the far side, or maybe on the asphalt a few feet past him. Ball and unexpanded JHPs are the bullets that go on to hit the schoolbuses full of orphaned nuns on their way to a trial lawyer's convention.

That's an oversimplification. Assuming adequate penetration, a larger handgun bullet (in addition to a real possibility of disrupting something vital that a somewhat smaller bullet just misses) would disrupt more tissue and, although not quantifiable, thus would increase the probability of incapacitation. Undoubtedly, very few people would continue to fight, despite whatever injuries, as long as they are not physiologically incapacitated (paralysis, coma, death). On the other hand, it certainly seems that a 9mm eye shot would be a more effective "threat stopper" than a body shot with a .44 Magnum.

[Tokarev]

Most good 9mm will penetrate to equal depths and expand to equal diameters. Does that mean the current crop of 9mm defensive bullets will be as effective as the run of the mill 44 Special stuff? I'd think so.

There's just no reason that 44 Special can't be "as good as" 45 Auto. Or at least 40 S&W since they share a very similar diameter. Bullet design and outdated pressure/velocity specs have really crippled a great old cartridge.

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[QED]

Indeed. A light-for-caliber 200 grain .44 JHP @ 850 fps will penetrate more than any 9mm JHP (fired from full-size 9mm pistols) for same expanded diameter. SOS caused a lot of mayhem in '70s with a 246 gr. LRN @ ~650 fps.

[Malamute]

That's an oversimplification. Assuming adequate penetration, a larger handgun bullet (in addition to a real possibility of disrupting something vital that a somewhat smaller bullet just misses) would disrupt more tissue and, although not quantifiable, thus would increase the probability of incapacitation. Undoubtedly, very few people would continue to fight, despite whatever injuries, as long as they are not physiologically incapacitated (paralysis, coma, death). On the other hand, it certainly seems that a 9mm eye shot would be a more effective "threat stopper" than a body shot with a .44 Magnum.

Ill first say I'm a large caliber fan from way back, including 44 spl and mag,...however,.....the math shows .430" - .355" = .075" difference in diameter. Half of that, is .0375" (bullet only sticks out half the difference in diameter on each side) Thats how much wider the swath of death and destruction is based n basic diameter. Slightly less than 4/100ths of an inch. In my mind the difference was MUCH greater.

Most good 9mm will penetrate to equal depths and expand to equal diameters. Does that mean the current crop of 9mm defensive bullets will be as effective as the run of the mill 44 Special stuff? I'd think so.

There's just no reason that 44 Special can't be "as good as" 45 Auto. Or at least 40 S&W since they share a very similar diameter. Bullet design and outdated pressure/velocity specs have really crippled a great old cartridge.

Agree, the old RN lead bullet leads were pretty puny in actual effect on game that Ive shot with them, similar to RN 45 Colts and 45 auto loads. Jack rabbits often get up and run away after being body shot with them. Ive had it happen many times. SWC loads, I dont recall ever having jacks run off. one I body shot with a factory Winchester Lubaloy 357 lead load basically exploded. Thats a plain swc load at full 357 old school veloicy as far as i know, in a 6" revolver. Bullet shape makes a bit difference.

Indeed. A light-for-caliber 200 grain .44 JHP @ 850 fps will penetrate more than any 9mm JHP (fired from full-size 9mm pistols) for same expanded diameter. SOS caused a lot of mayhem in '70s with a 246 gr. LRN @ ~650 fps.

Certainly any bullet is capable of mayhem if directed well. See above comment. If the 44 spl RN bullets caused mayhem, I'm laying money on the shooter doing a good job, not so much the awesomeness of the RN bullets, despite being awesomely 44 caliber and all. I think theres some difference, but not as much as I used to, unless the targets are larger and top loads are used in the larger calibers. I do prefer the larger calibers when it comes to large animals, as the higher powered loads will make a difference in that event i believe, such as 17 grs 2400/250 gr Lyman 429421 bullet in 44 spl.

[QED]

Ill first say I'm a large caliber fan from way back, including 44 spl and mag,...however,.....the math shows .430" - .355" = .075" difference in diameter. Half of that, is .0375" (bullet only sticks out half the difference in diameter on each side) Thats how much wider the swath of death and destruction is based n basic diameter. Slightly less than 4/100ths of an inch. In my mind the difference was MUCH greater.

The amount of tissue disruption is proportional not to caliber but to effective bullet area; in case you referenced 47% more tissue would be disrupted, assuming same penetration.

Certainly any bullet is capable of mayhem if directed well. See above comment. If the 44 spl RN bullets caused mayhem, I'm laying money on the shooter doing a good job, not so much the awesomeness of the RN bullets, despite being awesomely 44 caliber and all. I think theres some difference, but not as much as I used to, unless the targets are larger and top loads are used in the larger calibers. I do prefer the larger calibers when it comes to large animals, as the higher powered loads will make a difference in that event i believe, such as 17 grs 2400/250 gr Lyman 429421 bullet in 44 spl.

The point was that even with a lousy choice of ammunition moving at ordinary BB speed, .44 special is capable of fairly quick incapacitation, not to mention lethality.

[5pins]

The amount of tissue disruption is proportional not to caliber but to effective bullet area; in case you referenced 47% more tissue would be disrupted, assuming same penetration.






The point was that even with a lousy choice of ammunition moving at ordinary BB speed, .44 special is capable of fairly quick incapacitation, not to mention lethality.

Are you saying that the .44 Spl. is almost 50% more effective then the .40 S&W? An expanded .40 is going to have more "effective bullet area" then a non-expanded .44.