Optic Mounted Pistols and Concepts in Application

[busdriver]

At what distance does the sighting system start to matter more than how fast you can pull the trigger?

Like you said, that distance will depend on individual skill, but a dot will carry you further, fast than irons.

Whether that distance is relevant to a self defense situation is another question. You mentioned elsewhere that the majority of CCW firearm use is inside 7 yards; if that is your assumption to base the remainder of your analysis on, then a dot probably isn't worth the money or time.

If we change that assumption, and 15-25 yard shooting is on the table, a dot starts to become much more valuable. The same thing applies to shooting on the move, dots have an advantage.

[Luke]

The fact is also that the first two or three shots are done not with the front sights in focus but with the bad guy in focus, only after the initial contact will the rate of fire slow down as the front sights are being picked up (we are talking under a second here for all these shots).

2-3 shots, index shooting, noticing the front sight after the first few shots.. all under a second.

My point of contention is that at a relative distance which depends on our individual competency it is no longer how fast you can pull the trigger and how quickly you can pick up your sights.

So no index shooting, only good sight pictures.

I have recently started dryfiring more but that is just for training purposes, as in trigger control diagnostics with a laserlyte

And here is your main problem.

[David S.]

VDM.

I'm assuming that your agency limits you from equipping your duty gun with a RDS, preventing you from going "all in" on the system. Unlike you (presumably), a CCW or competitive shooter can afford to dedicate all his resources into the dot. Do you think that factors in to your personal evaluation?

I have no dog in this race. I can't afford to invest in this technology until it becomes Aimpoint (for long guns) solid.

[HCM]

You don't focus on the target or the laser but the front sight and pick up the impact in your peripheral.

I understand the concept but in practice it was generating "eye flicker" i.e. Looking at the target, no bueno.

[voodoo_man]

Like you said, that distance will depend on individual skill, but a dot will carry you further, fast than irons.

Whether that distance is relevant to a self defense situation is another question. You mentioned elsewhere that the majority of CCW firearm use is inside 7 yards; if that is your assumption to base the remainder of your analysis on, then a dot probably isn't worth the money or time.

If we change that assumption, and 15-25 yard shooting is on the table, a dot starts to become much more valuable. The same thing applies to shooting on the move, dots have an advantage.

Not my assumption, data is from FBI LEOKA for the last ten or so years for deadly force with firearms. Same is probably somewhere out there for CCW.

Irons are faster than dots for the vast majority of pistol carrying people, won't rehash what I stated previously, the points speak for themselves.

VDM.

I'm assuming that your agency limits you from equipping your duty gun with a RDS, preventing you from going "all in" on the system. Unlike you (presumably), a CCW or competitive shooter can afford to dedicate all his resources into the dot. Do you think that factors in to your personal evaluation?

I have no dog in this race. I can't afford to invest in this technology until it becomes Aimpoint (for long guns) solid.

As I stated above, and before, there are plenty of valid reasons for this, even if people do not want to accept them as fact.

There are serious technological limitations to the current crop of RDS for pistol use. Maybe aimpoint will fix all that, if so I'll be the first to move on to the better system.

At this moment I would not switch to an optic mounted pistol for duty use even if it was an option and I've already raised plenty of points to support this current stance.

As for dedication of time, not worth it, not even remotely in my opinion. The study posted by doc echoed many of my issues, given a wider sampling set I'd wager the vast majority of people would become even more lazy to train as they have an RDS which makes accuracy easy. The acceptable trade off for them would be speed.

Speed is life. I will never give up speed for marginal accuracy, and by marginal I mean only measurably different beyond 25y, which is directly against statical deadly force firearm use distance.

[voodoo_man]

I understand the concept but in practice it was generating "eye flicker" i.e. Looking at the target, no bueno.

Never experienced this, ive actually never spoken with anyone who has, just read it online a few times here or there.

Depends on the distance also, if I'm at 7 yards and I'm transitioning from front sight to target with the fuzzy dot over it I'm already way behind the curve as the front sight can (and should) provide the same level of accuracy at that distance. At 25 yards, I'm going to focus on finding the dot and providing an accurate trigger pressure as those are the factors which allow the RDS to out perform irons.

[busdriver]

My stance, and viewpoints, are from someone who has enough gun in hand time to understand the requirements of real life application and seeing the very clear gap between systems when applied to reality, especially so for the average CCW citizen.

My stance is from someone who is not a world class shooter, but I have actually shot matches with several. I know full well what technical shooting situations favor a dot, being able to exploit that is the only thing that occasionally gets me a score better than a world class GM shooting an iron sighted gun, usually I only just barely hang-on.

sub 21 feet iron sights will work better for most people. It is also a distance which requires an RDS to be zeroed at a close range

This is flat out wrong. I zero the dot at 25 yards, you just need to apply a hold over. It does take practice to be able to do that subconsciously.

I have devoted less time to an optic mounted pistol than I have with iron sight pistols. I have done a little bit of self discovery with an optic mounted pistol just for familiarization......... As for drills, I can and have run consistently run drills with irons faster and more accurately, as most drills are run 7 yards and in. The only exception is a times accuracy shoot at a distance of 25+ yards.

This is the root of my problem with your argument. You pass judgement based on the above, as if you should be able to just pickup the new sight and be wildly better or it isn't worth it.

I doubt anyone would have a problem with your point if you just said:
The dot's primary advantage is longer range shooting, shooting on the move, and very small targets. Don't expect any advantage on close range, relatively open targets. Expect to be slower at first, have problems picking up the dot, etc. It takes a lot of practice to be capable of taking advantage of the dot, and overcome the initial problems. Anyone unable or unwilling to put in a significant amount of dry practice, should stick to irons unless there are mitigating circumstances like eyesight problems. Consider learning to shoot with a target focus regardless, at typical self defense distances (FBI data shows the majority are inside 7 yards) there is no need to see a sharp front sight. Furthermore, considering the open top reflex sights have been shown to have problems in adverse weather, anyone looking at a dot should seriously consider their environment.

[voodoo_man]

My stance is from someone who is not a world class shooter, but I have actually shot matches with several. I know full well what technical shooting situations favor a dot, being able to exploit that is the only thing that occasionally gets me a score better than a world class GM shooting an iron sighted gun, usually I only just barely hang-on.


This is flat out wrong. I zero the dot at 25 yards, you just need to apply a hold over. It does take practice to be able to do that subconsciously.


This is the root of my problem with your argument. You pass judgement based on the above, as if you should be able to just pickup the new sight and be wildly better or it isn't worth it.

I doubt anyone would have a problem with your point if you just said:
The dot's primary advantage is longer range shooting, shooting on the move, and very small targets. Don't expect any advantage on close range, relatively open targets. Expect to be slower at first, have problems picking up the dot, etc. It takes a lot of practice to be capable of taking advantage of the dot, and overcome the initial problems. Anyone unable or unwilling to put in a significant amount of dry practice, should stick to irons unless there are mitigating circumstances like eyesight problems. Consider learning to shoot with a target focus regardless, at typical self defense distances (FBI data shows the majority are inside 7 yards) there is no need to see a sharp front sight. Furthermore, considering the open top reflex sights have been shown to have problems in adverse weather, anyone looking at a dot should seriously consider their environment.

You misunderstood what I posted, if you read my article I recommend rds zero at 25 yards.

I also focus on real world conditions and not gamer conditions as they are, by their very definition, unrealistic.

I pass no judgement, I merely made factual statements to support my stance, facts which you just restated and told me I am being judgemental.

I encourage you to read the article again, if needed, as we seem to agree on a lot or points. Remove any possible negative emotional reactions to the posts, there aren't any.

[busdriver]

You misunderstood what I posted, if you read my article I recommend rds zero at 25 yards.

I caught that, here's the full quote for anyone following along:

Right, so at the statically probable distances the vast majority of pistol uses have been recorded which is sub 21 feet iron sights will work better for most people. It is also a distance which requires an RDS to be zeroed at a close range which is directly against the very reason to have an RDS on a pistol to begin with.

My point is there's no need to ever zero a dot close, you can still shoot accurately at close range with a 25 yard zero just fine, even when the gun doesn't have iron sights at all. You just need to know your hold over at close range and be able to apply it subconsciously.

I also focus on real world conditions and not gamer conditions as they are, by their very definition, unrealistic.

Not sure what aspect you're referring to as unrealistic; shooting on the move, longer ranges or tight, partially exposed targets? I'll grant you that taking on 16 cardboard targets by yourself, while slinging a 29 round mag holding, 4 pound hand cannon isn't realistic. I get that it's a game. My point is I have actual quantifiable experience that shows the advantages of a red dot. If you don't think you can learn anything at all from competition shooters, so be it.

I pass no judgement, I merely made factual statements to support my stance, facts which you just restated and told me I am being judgemental. I encourage you to read the article again, if needed, as we seem to agree on a lot or points. Remove any possible negative emotional reactions to the posts, there aren't any.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean you're being judgmental on a personal level. Let me re-phrase, your article (which I did go re-read, just to make sure) seems to paint the optic as a 25+ yard tool, or at least, that with practice can be matched with irons out to 25. It seems you found that, based on your limited time with the dot, 25 yards was the distance where the dot became clearly better. Any shooter new to a dot, but proficient with irons would probably make the same observation. When I started shooting a dot, I was pretty damn slow with irons and found an almost immediate speed increase beyond 10 yards. IF someone puts in the time to really learn how to use the dot (including recoil control, index, etc.), the advantage is much closer than 25 yards, especially with smaller targets.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but don't under-sell what the dot provides for those willing/able to put in the work.

[DocGKR]

Not all defensive shooting situations are 7 yards and closer, as a reading of recent news events illustrates. When needing to rapidly stop an active shooter perhaps armed with a rifle at location like a long school hallway, a big open mall area, large warehouse, or a baseball field, an RDS will likely give the defensive handgun shooter an advantage over irons...