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Thread: Optic Mounted Pistols and Concepts in Application

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post


    What are your theories as to the current non-penetration of RDS mounted pistols into the CCW world?
    I think it is multi-factorial.

    There are folks who carry 1911s and revos. They will never use an RDS.

    There are folks who can't afford anything but a hi-power or a taurus. I've spoken to those and felt like an idiot after not being able to control my initial reaction. Some people have no money to buy anything but a cheapest gun and a little ammo.

    Some don't know that RDS exist.

    Some people try and find it not worth it, like you did.

    Some, like me, don't think that there is a carry worthy RDS that can support a performance that exceeds that of irons. This doesn't mean that there are no people whose performance will not be enhanced by existing options, such as already mentioned vision-impaired shooters or shooters to whom concept of speed doesn't apply.

    Maybe there are more reasons that I can't think of right now.
    Last edited by YVK; 06-19-2017 at 07:19 PM.

  2. #62
    Personally, I very much look forward to the point when we get RDS with the durability we've come to expect from Aimpoints on long guns

    As to training issues, I wonder what would happen if we started with a new shooter without prior experience with irons and trained them from the ground up with the RDS and good RDS technique. Then say once they were proficient, we handed them an iron sighted pistol with no RDS. How would they feel about irons? I'd wager they'd looking​ at them as backward and archaic​, but that's just a theory.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    I think it is multi-factorial.

    There are folks who carry 1911s and revos. They will never use an RDS.

    There are folks who can't afford anything but a hi-power or a taurus. I've spoken to those and felt like an idiot after not being able to control my initial reaction. Some people have no money to buy anything but a cheapest gun and a little ammo.

    Some don't know that RDS exist.

    Some people try and find it not worth it, like you did.

    Some, like me, don't think that there is a carry worthy RDS that can support a performance that exceeds that of irons. This doesn't mean that there are no people whose performance will not be enhanced by existing options, such as already mentioned vision-impaired shooters or shooters to whom concept of speed doesn't apply.

    Maybe there are more reasons that I can't think of right now.
    I agree, and the baseline should be training. The guy who carries a taurus judge around probably doesn't want an RDS just like the guy who carries a $5k 1911 because .45 is God's caliber, they have different reasons and purposes for carry. We know those reasons to be not compatible with reality, but if the guys trains really well and thoroughly who are we to disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    Personally, I very much look forward to the point when we get RDS with the durability we've come to expect from Aimpoints on long guns

    As to training issues, I wonder what would happen if we started with a new shooter without prior experience with irons and trained them from the ground up with the RDS and good RDS technique. Then say once they were proficient, we handed them an iron sighted pistol with no RDS. How would they feel about irons? I'd wager they'd looking​ at them as backward and archaic​, but that's just a theory.
    I raised this exact situation earlier in the thread. I'd suspect that if/when the RDS goes down that person may have a really bad day.

    I liken this to learning​ to properly shoot rifles. Everyone should start with Appleseed, iron sights, mandatory goals and standards with basic setups. Then and only then move on to a better, more modern system. If we go backwards I thinks it's a handicap.
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  4. #64
    I view red dot and iron sight shooting as complementary. Greater developed skills with the dot makes me more visual, and better able to track iron sights. In the same way, shooting PCC in USPSA this season has made me a better pistol shooter, as I learned to process visually and press the trigger faster.

    Just back in from the range, and a few neat things happened. First, my wife who has been focused on bear defensive shooting the last bit, shot her 34 MOS/DP Pro for the first time in several months. It took her one full magazine to get comfortable, and then she was back to where she left off with it. She then transitioned to an iron sight USP FS 9, which is an understudy for bear HK pistols, and that was seamless.

    I spent the session working my Q5/DP Pro, and the red dot tells me so much about my grip, prep and press, that it is like having a full time coach. Then grabbed my USP FS .45, with three dot Mepro tritium sights and 230 Lawman, and went 4/4 at the turbo level on the 2H and 2B/1H parts of Gabe's test. Finished up with some very fast transitions to widely spaced eight inch steel, and I am sure that is a by product of the red dot work I did just prior.

    This is a long way of saying that regardless of whether a red dot is suitable for your own EDC now, the time spent shooting a red dot helps your iron sight shooting a lot, because it makes you more visual and provides continuous feedback to your grip and trigger press.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #65
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    Personal experience is all I have to go by.

    My vision isn't what it used to be. I used to wear glasses to shoot but felt that wasn't comparable to being on the street, so I would shoot without glasses. I went with more light gap between the front and rear sights and that helped. But still blurry, and unless I am out on a bright day, not good.

    I tried a red dot and was measurably slower. But from research, I felt I should put in enough practice to be able to present as well as with my irons.

    Last year I started shooting some matches with my irons. Then started with red dots. I am now faster with the red dots.

    I have many thousands of presentations with irons. Far less so with the red dots. Maybe a couple thousand. When you add up dry practice, live fire practice and some matches, it adds up pretty fast.

    I enjoy shooting irons, but I will never stop shooting red dots. Just better in every way. GJM and others have given some great insight about shooting red dots. For instance you don't realize how much your pistol moves with iron sights, until you see the same with a red dot that moves all around. You can't wait for that dot to be as steady as you see your iron sights.

    I have tried many ways to be consistently on target with a red dot. Finally, what works for me is just to present to the red dot being on target. I don't use BUIS, although I tried.

    If you are over 40, start shooting a red dot now.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    This is a long way of saying that regardless of whether a red dot is suitable for your own EDC now, the time spent shooting a red dot helps your iron sight shooting a lot, because it makes you more visual and provides continuous feedback to your grip and trigger press.
    And in my case, and I'd think others (and perhaps not only those with older eyes) would feel the same, when the groups I shot at distances with the dot were consistently tighter than those shot with irons, it made me more confident in the gun and my abilities, and determined to try and improve my iron sight shooting at distances - - - and also to improve my in-close speed with the dot. Pretty much a win-win.

    I think it was Doc Roberts who suggested the way to go was irons, a red dot and a green laser. Seems prudent to equip one's self as best as one can to counter a variety of conditions.

  7. #67
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    I think there are possibilities with Viz lasers. All of my carbine and CSW with lasers have had co-axial zeroes on them.

    Intersecting zeroes with lasers, especially those mounted on the bottom of a pistol WML, are - from my humble perspective - rather less than viable. At least until way the heck out there, if ever. If some think a 7 yd AR zero is problematic, think about an intersecting 3 yd zero on a pistol with a X400 or TLR2 where the laser is well below the barrel and what that means for a 10, 15 yard shot.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Angus McFee View Post
    I think there are possibilities with Viz lasers. All of my carbine and CSW with lasers have had co-axial zeroes on them.

    Intersecting zeroes with lasers, especially those mounted on the bottom of a pistol WML, are - from my humble perspective - rather less than viable. At least until way the heck out there, if ever. If some think a 7 yd AR zero is problematic, think about an intersecting 3 yd zero on a pistol with a X400 or TLR2 where the laser is well below the barrel and what that means for a 10, 15 yard shot.
    Yes, we want a parallel zero.





    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  9. #69
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Yes, we want a parallel zero.
    Thanks George, you should have seen it before the edit.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Angus McFee View Post
    I think there are possibilities with Viz lasers. All of my carbine and CSW with lasers have had co-axial zeroes on them.

    Intersecting zeroes with lasers, especially those mounted on the bottom of a pistol WML, are - from my humble perspective - rather less than viable. At least until way the heck out there, if ever. If some think a 7 yd AR zero is problematic, think about an intersecting 3 yd zero on a pistol with a X400 or TLR2 where the laser is well below the barrel and what that means for a 10, 15 yard shot.
    I zero for 25 yards, and just kinda learn the offset. Ultimately, I don't see the laser as a precision aiming tool, but more useful for hitting A zones.

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