KRtraining - red dot study

[Tamara]

eta As far as poor weather, in more recent past we did have a day of crap weather together in a Ernest Langdon class in Indy.

Yeah, and even JJ & Ernest noted that you were railing it with that dot. How'd it hold up in the wet?

ETA:

After really sucking on Dot Torture it took everything I had to even return for the second day. I think the only thing that didn't let me slink away in shame was that there were a few other people there who performed as poorly as I had.

In my defense, I'd just switched to the M&P, like, two weeks before that class.

[Erick Gelhaus]

IF I read the article correctly, IF, those involved were only experienced competitive shooters. Sounds like that'd be people with a fair amount of time and experience using a system (iron sights) not involved in the study. I look forward to reading the actual study and looking at everything there, especially on the experience side; rather than just going off the summary.

What I'd really like to see (and proposed to one organization that has resources to support it) would be a study looking at both inexperienced shooters (a lot) and working cops (some) with pistols that have RDS, projected lasers, traditional sights, and (for grins) no sights. Hopefully the outcome would give the community of at least a real decent entry level system. I have a way to work around the issues with using inexperienced shooters.

[busdriver]

IF I read the article correctly, IF, those involved were only experienced competitive shooters.

The audio clip he refers to delves into it a bit more. There were four categories of shooters, from just got their CHL, to "Instructor" level (B class and up in USPSA).

[imp1295]

After hearing the podcast by Mas and company the other day I decided to try and use Karl's criteria on my own with the red dot. That is, 1.5 sec par, 5yds and 10yds. But, I decided that I wanted to go for two shots instead of one. I've been with the RMR07 for about 5 months now, on a G19, with supressor height buis.

I know this isn't a hard standard. But, I'm not even a middling shooter in my opinion.

2 @ 5yds
1. 1.29(1.03, .26)
2. 1.28 (.98, .30)
3. 1.41 (.94, .47)
4. 1.35(.91, .44)

@10 yds
1. 1.62(1.16, .46)
2. 1.72 (1.20, .51)
3. 1.59 (1.08, .51)
4. 1.74 (1.06, .68)
5. 1.49 (.97, .52)

The one thing for me is that I guess I can work on my follow-ups at 10yds. But, I didn't feel it was too hard of a standard. Now, maybe if I had Karl there, evaluating me the stress would change things a bit. Who knows, just another data point I guess.

I have realized that my "Test" scores are much more consistent with the RDS than Irons. I need to run this next week with my irons only to compare I guess.

[MVS]

IF I read the article correctly, IF, those involved were only experienced competitive shooters. Sounds like that'd be people with a fair amount of time and experience using a system (iron sights) not involved in the study..

Going by this sentence, that is not how I understood it.

Over a two year period we collected data on 118 shooters, male and female, novice to Grand Master (top 5% in USPSA) level, from 18 to 76 years old, during KR Training classes, local shooting events, and the national A Girl and a Gun conference.

[GJM]

I have also found a red dot makes for more consistent performance. Perhaps, because it is more straightforward to interpert a dot at speed, than iron sights, which have more variation (target focus vs front sight focus, light bars, etc.), resulting in more variation in aiming. For me, the dot makes shooting more of a trigger control exercise.

I also don't think you can say "red dot," as there are a number of different dots with significantly variable displays, that can be mounted differently (height, BUIS), and there are different grip angle pistols which can influence ease of acquiring the dot.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I stand corrected, thanks for out what I'd mis-remembered.

[TAZ]

Speaking for the old eyes syndrome afflicted, I can 100% agree that the dot is better than irons. Not a huge difference inside 7 yds as there even a fuzzy front sight will get an A most times. The dot however gets me grouped A's as in; even that close in I am more consistent. Past that for my eyes the dot just works better. No expert, by any stretch, but both accuracy and time are better once we get past the 10 yds line.

I've also found that my wife, who would consider herself a pure novice with a handgun, finds it easier to be more consistent with a dot vs irons. Her eyes aren't quite as bad as mine, but the ability to simply see at the dot and target on the same plane helps her. Easier for her to call the shot as well with a dot.

[TiroFijo]

See post #3 by DocGKR... I agree word by word.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Very good summary and generally in concordance with what we experienced in our LE service handgun RDS study which began in 2010, the results of which have been reported repeatedly since then:

Doc...Rehn's is the study I mentioned in a tangential thread a couple weeks back.


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