KRtraining - red dot study

[MVS]

That was interesting. The summarized results were not exactly what I would expect.

I agree it was interesting, however as someone who has had a RMR RM02 on his EDC for about 7 years now and attended numerous training classes with it (including TLG's Speed Kills and Get SOM) as well as now competing with a DPP, it was pretty much what I would expect.

[guymontag]

Karl is a vetted SME. I believe he picked the 15 yard point because a fair amount of his study was on people who hadn't shot much at all and didn't have any preconceived notions. 15 yards tends to be the 'break even' on accuracy for a lot of folks. 25 has always been the standard, but 15 is the attainable standard for most shooters.

I don't think anyone is questioning if he is vetted or an SME.

I may not be the best shooter or the best academic but I thought that with articles and even studies you have a target audience. So although GM's were involved with the study do you think this study was mainly for novices? I read "self defense" in the article too so probably CCW's too?

I really asked question about distances because I've read that red dots help further out, and with tougher shots too. Should that be included in the next study?

I have a red dot on the way to do my own personal experiment, but I know a shooter - and you might know them too, that absolutely dominated a falling steel match when he put a dot on his Glock. Anecdote sure, and maybe an audience that the study is not meant for?

[Dr. No]

I don't think anyone is questioning if he is vetted or an SME.

I may not be the best shooter or the best academic but I thought that with articles and even studies you have a target audience. So although GM's were involved with the study do you think this study was mainly for novices? I read "self defense" in the article too so probably CCW's too?

I really asked question about distances because I've read that red dots help further out, and with tougher shots too. Should that be included in the next study?

I have a red dot on the way to do my own personal experiment, but I know a shooter - and you might know them too, that absolutely dominated a falling steel match when he put a dot on his Glock. Anecdote sure, and maybe an audience that the study is not meant for?

I think the article was written to answer the question "are red dots on pistols really better" and the answer was "it depends on what you're doing".

As far as hard shots, 15 for a beginner is usually pretty tough. For advanced it should be pretty consistently mastered.

As far as the competition side, if I'm thinking of the same person they also had a lot more experience shooting open than irons so it would seem to stand easy they'd do better with a dot production gun.

[guymontag]

I think the article was written to answer the question "are red dots on pistols really better" and the answer was "it depends on what you're doing".

As far as hard shots, 15 for a beginner is usually pretty tough. For advanced it should be pretty consistently mastered.

As far as the competition side, if I'm thinking of the same person they also had a lot more experience shooting open than irons so it would seem to stand easy they'd do better with a dot production gun.

And I can definitely appreciate the "it depends" argument - perhaps to refine what I am trying to say is could there have been more information or shooting tests included to use this study as a more comprehensive reference rather than "it depends". I understand time and money factor in but I think it's a valid question. So we get the result - CCWers who don't shoot, don't practice benefit with a laser. Average B class is better with irons, guy who wants to dry fire all night in his basement and loves spending money on competition will love a dot.

Or am I just the retard here and everyone already assumed the above?

As for the shooter, his background shouldn't matter as much (IMHO) as the result, slow with irons, fast with dot.

[Dr. No]

And I can definitely appreciate the "it depends" argument - perhaps to refine what I am trying to say is could there have been more information or shooting tests included to use this study as a more comprehensive reference rather than "it depends". I understand time and money factor in but I think it's a valid question. So we get the result - CCWers who don't shoot, don't practice benefit with a laser. Average B class is better with irons, guy who wants to dry fire all night in his basement and loves spending money on competition will love a dot.

Or am I just the retard here and everyone already assumed the above?

As for the shooter, his background shouldn't matter as much (IMHO) as the result, slow with irons, fast with dot.

Interesting fact, if you study limited and open shooters, generally you will see the same results as this study. Irons are just as fast as guns with a comp up close but it's when targets get difficult or far that open guns really open up the gap.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[busdriver]

I posted this in another thread:

Assuming you think USPSA has their shit in a sock for classifiers, the following are for a clean run (all Alphas) to get a 100% score:
Fluffy's Revenge 2; a close range hoser stage with no reload: Open is 3% faster than Limited
3V; medium range stage with tight targets, shooting around a barricade with a reload: Open is 5% faster than Limited
4 Bill Drill; long range stage with reloads and strong and weak hand shooting: Open is 8% faster than Limited

[guymontag]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=757ZuPg3J_c

I like how TGO is putting it, perhaps similar message as the study in the OP but it clicks with me more. Especially how the dot can act as a diagnostic tool, maybe not buying skill per se but something close.

He does mention old eyes too. Luckily I can't comment on that.

[Bart Carter]

...He does mention old eyes too. Luckily I can't comment on that.

Well, I can. No contest for old eyes, RDS all the way.

[Tamara]

I agree it was interesting, however as someone who has had a RMR RM02 on his EDC for about 7 years now and attended numerous training classes with it (including TLG's Speed Kills and Get SOM)...

Was that the Indy class?

EDIT: I ask, because I seem to remember that was some shit weather. Cool and drizzly on day two?

[MVS]

Was that the Indy class?

EDIT: I ask, because I seem to remember that was some shit weather. Cool and drizzly on day two?

It was the Indy class. Sept 24-25, 2011. I don't remember the weather, I just remember how bad I sucked. Up until that point I had been extensively involved with SI both as a student and Instructor. Let's just say that accuracy was not real high on the priority list. It was that class with Todd and then subsequent classes with Tom Given's that really prompted me in my quest to become a better shooter. Anyway, I think I had been running the dot for about a year at that point and Todd was interested in how it did and how Appendix carry worked for me as it seemed at that time he had not seen much of it in class and maybe had just come out in favor of it? After really sucking on Dot Torture it took everything I had to even return for the second day. I think the only thing that didn't let me slink away in shame was that there were a few other people there who performed as poorly as I had.

eta As far as poor weather, in more recent past we did have a day of crap weather together in a Ernest Langdon class in Indy.