KRtraining - red dot study

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here you go:

http://blog.krtraining.com/red-dot-study-key-points/

[Edster]

That was interesting. The summarized results were not exactly what I would expect.

[DocGKR]

Very good summary and generally in concordance with what we experienced in our LE service handgun RDS study which began in 2010, the results of which have been reported repeatedly since then:

"Lessons Learned After 5 Years of RDS Use On Service Pistols

For shooters who have difficulty visualizing standard iron sights, a pistol RDS definitely improves hit probability, especially at longer ranges. The use of RDS on all weapon systems (handgun, SMG/PDW, shotgun, rifle) creates a common sight picture across platforms. The RDS allows the shooter to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing—this is an incredibly SIGNIFICANT factor in the real world!

Under 12-15 yards, conventional iron sights are generally are faster for most shooters; beyond that, a handgun with an RDS is tough to beat. A shooter is doing quite well, if when using a slide mounted RDS equipped handgun, they can EQUAL conventional iron sight performance during rapid fire shooting from around 12 yards and closer.

The real benefits of a pistol with slide mounted RDS occurs at longer ranges, with movement of the shooter or target, and in low light. Shooting at moving targets and when shooting on the move is dramatically easier with an RDS. When engaging a hostile target in a larger open area such as a school, shopping mall, airport, etc... that requires extensive movement and long shots, an RDS offers a substantial advantage over conventional iron sights based on numerous timed and scored practice scenarios. An RDS also offers advantages in reduced light shooting, as an RDS equipped pistol completely eclipses conventional tritium sights for low light shooting and is unsurpassed when using night vision.

Initially the larger 6-8 MOA size red dots were preferred, however, with increased experience using handgun RDS, the smaller 2-4 MOA dot size became more appealing for many shooters, especially for longer range targets. The ability to easily turn the dot off to allow practice with the BIS was appreciated. Likewise having the option to switch from auto intensity to manually adjusting dot brightness to optimize it for different lighting conditions was preferred. Much like with an AR15, awareness of the dot offset from the bore must be maintained at closer ranges under 10 yards or so. A 25 yard zero was used on all handgun RDS, allowing hits from 0-100 yards. Many shooters noted that it took several thousand presentations before they became fully comfortable with rapid target acquisition using the RDS. Almost all shooters quickly achieved large gains in their accuracy scores at 25 yards and farther. (Mounting RDS on inert training pistols like the SIRT can speed-up initial acclimatization to RDS equipped pistols and help new end-users more rapidly develop proficiency.)

Several older officers suffering from middle aged presbyopia had been plagued with steadily diminishing qualification scores over the past several years. After adopting an RDS equipped pistol they noticed a dramatic increase in their scores—some shooting better than they had 25 years earlier.

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-- For those with vision issues, an RDS equipped handgun can be the answer.
-- For certain specific operational requirements and mission sets, a handgun mounted RDS is an excellent tool, particularly for long range engagements and when using NV.
-- The ability to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to shooting is a key advantage of a pistol with RDS for LE use.
-- Slide mounted, reciprocating RDS are harder to shoot and less durable than stationary, frame mounted optics.

If you don't need an RDS, you don't have to use one; on the other hand, those who do use them, find them quite helpful in many respects."

[guymontag]

On mobile so I'll keep it short - KR seems like a nice and experienced guy but:

Shots only out to 15 yards, and not hard shots at that?
RMR? That's like the worst red dot for speed out there.
Paul Howe's standards? Are a lot of gamers going out there with dots? I know quite a few PD peeps that trained with Howe - they are not red dot on handgun guys.
GM's huh? Were they dry firing and testing with the dot over the course of the study? It seems like this is discussing the lowest common denominator shooter - not someone who is going dry fire and refine their index - GM or not or PO-PO or not.

[joshs]

On mobile so I'll keep it short - KR seems like a nice and experienced guy but:

Shots only out to 15 yards, and not hard shots at that?
RMR? That's like the worst red dot for speed out there.
Paul Howe's standards? Are a lot of gamers going out there with dots? I know quite a few PD peeps that trained with Howe - they are not red dot on handgun guys.
GM's huh? Were they dry firing and testing with the dot over the course of the study? It seems like this is discussing the lowest common denominator shooter - not someone who is going dry fire and refine their index - GM or not or PO-PO or not.

I think Karl is one of the few CO GMs, so he probably has a pretty good idea of what it takes to shoot a slide mounted RDS pistol well.

[guymontag]

I think Karl is one of the few CO GMs, so he probably has a pretty good idea of what it takes to shoot a slide mounted RDS pistol well.

Appeal to authority. And it doesn't answer the questions. I've also know enough and read enough from GM's to know that they disagree as much as they agree.

Also who is the audience for the study?

[GJM]

I think Karl is one of the few CO GMs, so he probably has a pretty good idea of what it takes to shoot a slide mounted RDS pistol well.

There are three people with a GM classification, and Karl is the only one currently with a classification greater than 95 percent.

https://www.uspsa.org/top20.php

(USPSA is supposedly soon adjusting up percentages, as CO is perhaps the hardest division -- not that I am upset about this. )

[orionz06]

Interesting. The responses as well.

[GJM]

Reference the study, now that I have read it. Seems reasonable.

However, I am not so interested in what most people experience, but very interested in what I experience, since there is likely to be significant variation between different shooters. There seems to be little dispute that the dot is an advantage on longer shots, and the open issue is on closer shots. It has taken me a while to get there, but inside ten yards, I am faster with the dot than iron sights. At all distances, the dot also allows me to call shots with greater precision, as in "that head shot was 1/2 inch right of center," level of shot calling.

My only problem with a red dot on a handgun is the technology, as I find neither the RMR nor DP Pro suitable for my needs for carry. Hopefully Aimpoint fixes that soon with the Nano.

[orionz06]

My only problem with a red dot on a handgun is the technology, as I find neither the RMR nor DP Pro suitable for my needs for carry. Hopefully Aimpoint fixes that soon with the Nano.

That to me seems to be the key. If we exclude vision issues from the mix it seems that we are on round 4 of folks thinking they discovered something new with a slide mounted dot and every time equipment issues come up. Especially with the round counts many need to get where they wanna be performance wise from 0-50.