On duty pistol vs off duty pistol

[GardoneVT]

The biggest problem I see with C3 is timing. In many personal defense scenarios having a loaded gun ready might not be fast enough to matter depending on circumstance. C3 for a personal defense situation off duty isn't much better then no gun at all from that perspective.

BUT, comma, training two different scenarios also poses a risk. It is part of why a "carry rotation" isn't the best practice for CCW,because different guns behave differently depending on their setups. The OP could carry C1 off duty/C3 on,but then he'd have to define when to draw and when to rack slide as part of the draw. He'd also have to change his admin handling habits - and it would be far too easy for the OP to load his Beretta at work C1 by accident because that's what he does with his Beretta at home or carry C3 by mistake off duty.

It's my understanding an admin handling fuckup like that would be punished disproportionately severely ; so this isn't a concern to dismiss.

[BehindBlueI's]

I am in 100% agreement with BBIs. The ramification of carrying C3 off duty where his sidearm is his only weapon heavily outweigh the ramifications of carrying hot and having to carry C3 on duty where the pistol is his secondary weapon, and he has friends with guns to back him up.

Right. Security carry on a military installation is completely different than walking around street crime. I had to carry C3 when I worked for DynCorp. I understand why. Not just due to AD concerns, but because the easiest way for an unarmed TCN to arm themselves after going through checkpoints was to jump a guard. Retention was significantly more important, as was making the weapon harder to use if they did get it from you. You were not alone, you would not have to grapple for any extended period of time, and you had buddies who could shoot some asshole off you. I trained to draw C3, but when I was home I did not carry C3...because that's stupid when you're outside that sort of environment.

Im not trying to kick off an E-pissing match by saying this,but I think we can agree the policy of C3 carry is the stupid part here,not the measures he needs to work around it.

That established ,racking the slide regardless would accomplish no benefit for him with a loaded gun,as the value of carrying hot is being able to draw and fire immediately. He can't train to do so lest on duty he points an empty weapon at a threat. So he'd have loaded the gun for nothing.

I don't think you understand my training to a default comments. You can train so that if that if you go on auto-pilot you go to the "do no harm" option. In this case, racking the slide. If you do have time to think, simply don't rack it and get the benefits of carrying a functional weapon. If you don't you revert to the default and the only thing you are out is one cartridge. If you can't do that, carry a revolver. The completely different feel makes it much easier to know what to do when you pull.

I'll put this as plainly as I can. C3 is stupid in all but a few limited environments. Whatever tiny gain you think you are getting to carry C3 off duty isn't worth it. Any trade off you can make to avoid C3 carry is worth it. I'd carry a revolver ready to fire any time over a pistol that's not ready to fire. I've seen too many people lose because they didn't or couldn't get a round chambered due to time constraints, grappled, etc. Encouraging someone who can safely carry a handgun to carry C3 for the purposes of self defense is encouraging them to do something that can get them hurt or killed.

[GardoneVT]

Right. Security carry on a military installation is completely different than walking around street crime. I had to carry C3 when I worked for DynCorp. I understand why. Not just due to AD concerns, but because the easiest way for an unarmed TCN to arm themselves after going through checkpoints was to jump a guard. Retention was significantly more important, as was making the weapon harder to use if they did get it from you. You were not alone, you would not have to grapple for any extended period of time, and you had buddies who could shoot some asshole off you. I trained to draw C3, but when I was home I did not carry C3...because that's stupid when you're outside that sort of environment.



I don't think you understand my training to a default comments. You can train so that if that if you go on auto-pilot you go to the "do no harm" option. In this case, racking the slide. If you do have time to think, simply don't rack it and get the benefits of carrying a functional weapon. If you don't you revert to the default and the only thing you are out is one cartridge. If you can't do that, carry a revolver. The completely different feel makes it much easier to know what to do when you pull.

I'll put this as plainly as I can. C3 is stupid in all but a few limited environments. Whatever tiny gain you think you are getting to carry C3 off duty isn't worth it. Any trade off you can make to avoid C3 carry is worth it. I'd carry a revolver ready to fire any time over a pistol that's not ready to fire. I've seen too many people lose because they didn't or couldn't get a round chambered due to time constraints, grappled, etc. Encouraging someone who can safely carry a handgun to carry C3 for the purposes of self defense is encouraging them to do something that can get them hurt or killed.

We are saying the same thing here. Frankly the OP may be better off with a revolver for off duty use.

I say that because OP might not have enough time to think "at home- draw and shoot" vs "at work- rack slide first" mid assault .There's a nonzero chance he'd (or any of us) could mix those steps up with detrimental consequences. That's also omitting the admin handling risk of chambering a round when he's not supposed to ,with damaging career consequences.

A revolver is different enough from a Beretta that he can just grab it without prior manipulation of the weapon ,and there's little risk of an admin handling error that could get the OP written up or censured.

[TCB]

I carry HK's at work (P2000) and off duty (VP9sk) and shoot a VP9 for training to maintain commonality for manipulations (mag release). I shoot a 1911 & a 2011 extensively in competition. I've never had a problem knowing what gun I was carrying and have not defaulted to trying to drop the mag on my work/carry/training guns like I do on my competition guns or vice versa. Triggers go to the rear, sights should be aligned and on your PID'd target...it's not rocket surgery. I don't think switching back and forth between platforms is as big of an issue as we think it might be? If you can't differentiate between platforms and how to properly manipulate them under stress, should you really be making a deadly force decision under stress? This isn't directed at anyone...just sayin'...something to consider?

[Bigghoss]

Accidentally chambering a round at work is a non-issue. We load at a clearing barrel under the guidance of a supervisor. You hand him the mags, close the bolt/let the slide go forward then he hands the mag to you to insert in the weapon. If somehow I were to accidentally chamber a round it would be handled right there and not be a big deal so long as I didn't also have an ND.

I think I'm leaning toward's BBIs' suggestion of carry loaded off duty but lean more heavily on practicing racking the slide. On duty I have a level III holster, off would be a level I from concealment so I already have to practice two different draws. On duty I'll have a carbine, off I won't and any time I don't have a carbine there are people standing right there. If I'm entering a situation that even the slightest bit sketchy I can take a sec to chamber a round and backup would already be on the way if not there already. If, for example, I have to pull over a vehicle that's not authorized to be somewhere I call it in and dispatch will have at least one other patrol en route.

My main concern when I started this thread was that how I carry off duty would end up hindering me if I needed to draw on duty. But I'm realizing now that if I need to draw my pistol on duty there's most likely already somebody fighting on my behalf.

TCB, the main issue in my situation isn't really shooting the different guns, it's how drastically different the draws are. From disengaging the safety and racking the slide on a DS/SA to pulling a striker from concealment. I can put the rounds on target reasonably well with any of the guns I own. Maybe you're right, so long as I minimize the platforms and carry methods I devote effort to, I might be able to train enough to be able to perform ether task on demand without fumbling. After reading the 9mm outdoor load thread and getting Critical Duty ammo in my normal carry gun I can probably give up on DA revolvers as a platform I need to maintain proficiency with. I still feel like maybe, for me, it would be best if I try to minimize the differences as much as reasonable.

After reading the responses I think I'm going to pick up a compact or subcompact DA/SA gun with a slide safety as soon as feasible. I'll probably go with a Safariland als holster as it's also kind of similar to the Safariland holster they will be issuing to me soon. And I'm leaning towards carrying safety on because I know the technique for getting it off and I feel comfortable with it. Or at least getting myself in the habit of swiping it off, even if it's not engaged or I end up with a decock only. Off duty I'll carry with a loaded chamber but I'll put more emphasis on my on-duty draw so hopefully if I mess up it'll be adding a step I don't need to instead of forgetting one. At least that's what I'm thinking. More input is always welcome and I would like to thank all of you very much for taking the time to help me.

[Hambo]

And I'm leaning towards carrying safety on because I know the technique for getting it off and I feel comfortable with it. Or at least getting myself in the habit of swiping it off, even if it's not engaged or I end up with a decock only. Off duty I'll carry with a loaded chamber but I'll put more emphasis on my on-duty draw so hopefully if I mess up it'll be adding a step I don't need to instead of forgetting one. At least that's what I'm thinking. More input is always welcome and I would like to thank all of you very much for taking the time to help me.

Just because the current trend in DA/SA is to use the decocker/safety as a decocker only does not meanit was always so. I remember noticing one sergeant whose 5906 was carried safety off and thinking, "What's up with this guy?" (He didn't wear a vest either, so I had a lot of WTF thoughts about him) Like you my hands are large and it's not a big deal to disengage the safety and I trained myself that way for years. Of course now I'm cool and all my 92s have been converted to G models.

[Clobbersaurus]

Accidentally chambering a round at work is a non-issue. We load at a clearing barrel under the guidance of a supervisor. You hand him the mags, close the bolt/let the slide go forward then he hands the mag to you to insert in the weapon. If somehow I were to accidentally chamber a round it would be handled right there and not be a big deal so long as I didn't also have an ND.

I think I'm leaning toward's BBIs' suggestion of carry loaded off duty but lean more heavily on practicing racking the slide. On duty I have a level III holster, off would be a level I from concealment so I already have to practice two different draws. On duty I'll have a carbine, off I won't and any time I don't have a carbine there are people standing right there. If I'm entering a situation that even the slightest bit sketchy I can take a sec to chamber a round and backup would already be on the way if not there already. If, for example, I have to pull over a vehicle that's not authorized to be somewhere I call it in and dispatch will have at least one other patrol en route.

My main concern when I started this thread was that how I carry off duty would end up hindering me if I needed to draw on duty. But I'm realizing now that if I need to draw my pistol on duty there's most likely already somebody fighting on my behalf.

TCB, the main issue in my situation isn't really shooting the different guns, it's how drastically different the draws are. From disengaging the safety and racking the slide on a DS/SA to pulling a striker from concealment. I can put the rounds on target reasonably well with any of the guns I own. Maybe you're right, so long as I minimize the platforms and carry methods I devote effort to, I might be able to train enough to be able to perform ether task on demand without fumbling. After reading the 9mm outdoor load thread and getting Critical Duty ammo in my normal carry gun I can probably give up on DA revolvers as a platform I need to maintain proficiency with. I still feel like maybe, for me, it would be best if I try to minimize the differences as much as reasonable.

After reading the responses I think I'm going to pick up a compact or subcompact DA/SA gun with a slide safety as soon as feasible. I'll probably go with a Safariland als holster as it's also kind of similar to the Safariland holster they will be issuing to me soon. And I'm leaning towards carrying safety on because I know the technique for getting it off and I feel comfortable with it. Or at least getting myself in the habit of swiping it off, even if it's not engaged or I end up with a decock only. Off duty I'll carry with a loaded chamber but I'll put more emphasis on my on-duty draw so hopefully if I mess up it'll be adding a step I don't need to instead of forgetting one. At least that's what I'm thinking. More input is always welcome and I would like to thank all of you very much for taking the time to help me.

I think you would be pleased with the PX4 series. I have found the PX4 and 92 series guns to be very complimentary in terms of transitioning platforms. They index very similar on the draw and the controls are almost identical in terms of practical use. The PX4's grip is slimmer and you have the option of switching the safety levers to the 92 series with the PX4. Try one out at a gun store. I think you will be very happy with it.

Here's a pic that shows the size of a Full Size PX4 vs a 92 Centurion

[Bigghoss]

So again I would like to thank everyone for their time and advice. Went shopping today and found a decent 3914. Got it for just under $320 out the door. Midway has mags on sale for $26 and change so I'll grab a handful and a new recoil spring. Should get me by until I get a PX4 or 92 compact.