Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

[ssb]

Whilst I agree, I also believe in people being competent in their firearms handling and use. Sometimes I see little to no evidence of that which gives me no warm fuzzy feeling as to how useful most individuals would be if they were being shot at themselves. I have seen hairy arsed soldiers freeze up when the real shooting starts, and they have been trained.

You'll have to forive and bear with me, I come from a place where the culture is different, even though I have been around firearms for most of my life. If you think I'm bad you should go shoot with some Germans, they are so upight they make me look like Genghis Kahns younger brother.

I think the rationale for having Suzie Homemaker pull her LCP out of her purse is that she'll act as a speed bump. The more time the (fill-in-the-blank's) spend dealing with her, the less time they're able to spend targeting the other innocents in the vicinity, and if she gets some hits and kills one that's a bonus. We're not expecting her to turn into a SEAL Team Delta Recon Ranger after an 8hr concealed carry course and a box of ammo at the range (though we'd obviously love for her to seek out quality instruction and increase her capabilities). Her role if she chooses to intervene is to at least slow the process of targeted killing down while waiting on a police response.

Your contributions have been interesting in this thread. Thank you for them.

[JohnO]

The UK is doomed if this is their mindset.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hide-tell.html

Much more is factoring into the demise of the UK and Western European civilization. For example. Low birth rates and upside down family trees (4 grandparents, 2 parents, 1 child) has necessitated the import of "outsiders". The delusion that refuges will somehow someway assimilate into western culture. And currently most critical the ridiculous inability to see they have created their own problem and are doomed unless drastic measures are implemented.

Let's ask the mayor of London what he thinks about the issue. Oh Yeah, Oops! Never mind.

[Chuteur]

The UK is doomed if this is their mindset.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hide-tell.html

Just trying to get unarmed civilians to a safe place and then let the problem be dealt with. 8 minutes: Damn good by anyone's standards.

As an extra:

The CTSFO was established to deal with such incidents as well as protracted heavy firepower incidents based on the events of the Mumbai and Nairobi attacks. I do believe that they are now in a position to deal with around 8 simultaneous attacks around London. And when I say around London that is basically the area inside the M25 motorway (freeway) have a look on google to see.

[Chuteur]

I think the rationale for having Suzie Homemaker pull her LCP out of her purse is that she'll act as a speed bump. The more time the (fill-in-the-blank's) spend dealing with her, the less time they're able to spend targeting the other innocents in the vicinity, and if she gets some hits and kills one that's a bonus. We're not expecting her to turn into a SEAL Team Delta Recon Ranger after an 8hr concealed carry course and a box of ammo at the range (though we'd obviously love for her to seek out quality instruction and increase her capabilities). Her role if she chooses to intervene is to at least slow the process of targeted killing down while waiting on a police response.

Your contributions have been interesting in this thread. Thank you for them.

Really? Feels like I'm being hit with a virtual baseball bat.

I come from a different place, same outcomes, but different expectations and approaches to dealing with situations. Add to that the fact that in europe we have personal firearms for sporting purposes and not for self defence. If you even mention self defence in the UK you will not get licensed. I have known of people use a firearm for self defence and be cleared in court afterwards, but the back must really be to the wall, with absolutely no other option, before you squeeze the trigger.

[Hambo]

However, there are individuals out there, ethnic arabs, muslims, born in europe and probably the US, who have been actively in combat for several years and probably have as much practical tactical and command experience as many military SNCO's and junior officers. Those are the one's we need to be worried about. As ISIS gets it's arse kicked in the middle east those individuals will filter out, probably returning whence they came and then the problems will really start as they change from an overt force to a covert terrorist force

No doubt, that's how we ended up with some Central American gangs.

I also share your doubt about the ability of the average person with a CCW doing much to thwart a terrorist incident. It really wouldn't matter if they were trained to Teir 1 standards though when we insure that there are gun free soft target areas. It's also largely irrelevant in certain types of attacks.

[ssb]

Really? Feels like I'm being hit with a virtual baseball bat.

I come from a different place, same outcomes, but different expectations and approaches to dealing with situations. Add to that the fact that in europe we have personal firearms for sporting purposes and not for self defence. If you even mention self defence in the UK you will not get licensed. I have known of people use a firearm for self defence and be cleared in court afterwards, but the back must really be to the wall, with absolutely no other option, before you squeeze the trigger.

I don't think you are. To get the baseball bat, just start a thread on why you think HK's LEM trigger system is bad

It's useful to see the actual -- rather than assumed by Americans -- mindset/perspective from the UK/Europe. I may not agree with it, but if I'm going to read about it, I'd rather read it from the horse's mouth rather than inferring it from news reports.

[Robinson]

Really? Feels like I'm being hit with a virtual baseball bat.

I come from a different place, same outcomes, but different expectations and approaches to dealing with situations. Add to that the fact that in europe we have personal firearms for sporting purposes and not for self defence. If you even mention self defence in the UK you will not get licensed. I have known of people use a firearm for self defence and be cleared in court afterwards, but the back must really be to the wall, with absolutely no other option, before you squeeze the trigger.

It might seem that way, but don't take it personally. Just like when some of your posts make it seem like you call into question the value and seriousness of the American 2nd Amendment. It's probably not your intention, it just comes across that way. The fact that you witness people at shooting ranges who don't impress you with their level of skill is not relevant to our Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. The number of people who excel will always be fewer than those who remain average. But on this forum you are conversing with people who are already determined to not be average and who take personal skill building seriously.

[blues]

Just trying to get unarmed civilians to a safe place and then let the problem be dealt with. 8 minutes: Damn good by anyone's standards.

As we've discussed previously, I completely agree with that evaluation. Outstanding work.

And though the size of our respective nations and populations are vastly different, those who (rightly or wrongly) believe that the threat derives from within the Muslim communities in our countries are myopic if they think that we in the U.S. will be any less subject to the same sorts of patterns of violence and difficulty in successfully addressing and arresting them...

Muslims in England: 2,660,116 (5.02% of the population)

Muslims in the USA: 3.3 million ( about 1% of the total U.S. population)

Just how many bad actors from each group will it take to cause mayhem? Not very many as has been shown quite clearly.

[ssb]

And though the size of our respective nations and populations are vastly different, those who (rightly or wrongly) believe that the threat derives from within the Muslim communities in our countries are myopic if they think that we in the U.S. will be any less subject to the same sorts of patterns of violence and difficulty in successfully addressing and arresting them...

What has surprised me the most about the whole War on Terror thing is that these simple attacks have not, for the most part, shown up here (or, at least, haven't successfully been carried out).

[Kanati]

Complex? How complicated is it to get three dipshits to attack at one time? The reason these attacks work is that they are not complex. They use simple weapons and the only goal is to create carnage and chaos. Aside from deaths and injuries they have tied up part of the city and dominate the news networks.

There's a layer of complexity here, much more than 3 dipshits. They planned and coordinted, in all likelyhood while being "Known to the security services"....don't know if that's the case here, but it would fit the pattern. The van was either rented or stolen. They took the time to make fake bomb vests. Planned a route that got them the max number of people in a captive space (bridge) for the vehicle attack, the route ended with the knifemen jumping out into a packed nightlife area.

They're planning, evolving (fake bomb vest) and keeping pretty impressive OPSEC. It's more than 3 dipshits on a joy ride.