Belt TQ Carrier: Phlster Flatpack or NAR?

[Nephrology]

The chest seal and NPA aren't great ideas for most first responders

to clarify: by first responders I meant bystanders, not Fire/LE/EMS.

Roughly once a month I receive messages from people that have used their medical kits to save lives. Almost half of those messages credited the chest seal and have no mention of using the TQ. Tiny insugnificant sample size but it still surprised me.

If i remember correctly Kerry Davis was on the Gunfightercast last year and talked importance of chest seals state side.
http://www.gunfightercast.com/wordpr...u-are-missing/

I would be curious to know more. Were these individuals professional first responders/military? What sort of injuries were they treating and what was the time-to-hospital?

For your average Joe Blow living in an urban or suburban setting, odds are good that the time that will elapse between calling 911 and EMS arrival will be very short. The diagnosis and treatment of tension pneumothorax ( aka TPT, for which the chest seal is intended) is far less intuitive than the indication/application of other bystander interventions. Typically (but not always), TPT takes time to develop, and by that point most patients in most settings will already be onboard the ambulance or in the ER.

In my amateur opinion, I'd rather have someone with minimal medical training focusing on other aspects of first aid (hemostasis, CPR) while they wait for first responders to arrive. In the grand scheme of things having a chest seal on your person isn't bad, but like everything else you can only be the master of so much. For a non-professional with BCLS training or less, it seems to me like a far better use of time/mental energy/pocket space to focus on interventions that are dirt simple and immediately life & limb threatening.

Here's a good review article on TPT. Note they specifically discourage the indiscriminate use of needle decompression.

[voodoo_man]

+1 for what Neph posted.

For the most part, every direct contact I've had with TPT was within 60 seconds of some of the best level 1 care in the US (if not the world). I've had to apply chest seals on several occasions and those were because direct transport was not possible due to how hostile the scene was. You won't hurt anyone by putting a chest seal on a hole in someone's chest. You might putting a needle into them.

Few local ER docs each told me basically the same things, get them to a hospital and let the pros do the needle work. TQs first, chest seal or hemostatics with pressure second, then transport. If you cannot transport focus on getting the scene secure because the injured person may die either way, but they have a fighting chance if the issue stopping transport is resolved quickly.

Everyone should and get their basic cpr cert and take a medical gunshot trauma class. If you carry a gun, then you should know how to begin first aid and do whatever is possible to help until higher care arrives.

[OnionsAndDragons]

^^^ What VDM said in regards to the seal is what I have been told by 3 different trauma/ER docs I have asked. It might help, it is very unlikely to hurt.

Don't go poking more holes unless you really know what you are doing, or there is no chance for help for a long while and it's worth rolling the dice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pennzoil]

to clarify: by first responders I meant bystanders, not Fire/LE/EMS.



I would be curious to know more. Were these individuals professional first responders/military? What sort of injuries were they treating and what was the time-to-hospital?

For your average Joe Blow living in an urban or suburban setting, odds are good that the time that will elapse between calling 911 and EMS arrival will be very short. The diagnosis and treatment of tension pneumothorax ( aka TPT, for which the chest seal is intended) is far less intuitive than the indication/application of other bystander interventions. Typically (but not always), TPT takes time to develop, and by that point most patients in most settings will already be onboard the ambulance or in the ER.

In my amateur opinion, I'd rather have someone with minimal medical training focusing on other aspects of first aid (hemostasis, CPR) while they wait for first responders to arrive. In the grand scheme of things having a chest seal on your person isn't bad, but like everything else you can only be the master of so much. For a non-professional with BCLS training or less, it seems to me like a far better use of time/mental energy/pocket space to focus on interventions that are dirt simple and immediately life & limb threatening.

Here's a good review article on TPT. Note they specifically discourage the indiscriminate use of needle decompression.

Almost all of them were LEO. Here is one that said he was ok with me sharing the email.



Chest seals are for preventing open pneumothorax from developing in to TPT. Buying you time to get to a higher level of care. If you can apply a sticker you can basically apply a chest seal, which is pretty dirt simple.

Urban setting or suburban, odds are good, typically (but not always) sounds awesome except for when you watch a loved one on the other end of that spectrum.

I agree with everyone on the needle decompression being done by the pros if it's needed.

I get it Nephrology my brother is an ER doc and he also doesn’t carry any medical equipment. That’s because he basically lives in the ER 6-7 day’s week with medical equipment readily available.

[Nephrology]

Almost all of them were LEO. Here is one that said he was ok with me sharing the email.



Chest seals are for preventing open pneumothorax from developing in to TPT. Buying you time to get to a higher level of care. If you can apply a sticker you can basically apply a chest seal, which is pretty dirt simple.

Urban setting or suburban, odds are good, typically (but not always) sounds awesome except for when you watch a loved one on the other end of that spectrum.

I get it Nephrology my brother is an ER doc and he also doesn’t carry any medical equipment. That’s because he basically lives in the ER 6-7 day’s week with medical equipment readily available.

Thanks for sharing that message! that sort of context is helpful for me to see.

You're totally right in that a chest seal is low risk/potentially high reward and takes up a minimal amount of space and they certainly can be lifesaving in some settings. I only encourage minimalism on this topic because most non-professional 1st responders buying these medical kits will probably have little training and zero real-life practice in using their contents. This is bad for lots of obvious reasons (especially if the kit includes a chest dart), but most importantly it can give a false sense of preparedness for medical emergency. A blowout kit is helpful but not if the patient arrests and our fictional Joe Blow hasn't had CPR training since the Boy Scouts.

There's also the concept of "common/life threatening." By nature of the profession, it will be much more common for a LEO to be the first person on scene to treat penetrating trauma than a random citizen in a different line of work, making a chest seal a highly sensible piece of equipment in LE. A private citizen will much more commonly encounter a stroke or a heart attack than a GSW, but I don't see anyone selling Multicam AEDs. Trauma is "sexy," and in this interesting combination lifestyle/hobby of ours that can lead us to inaccurately weigh certain risks over others. I try to provide a counterbalance

[Pennzoil]

I understand and agree Nephrology.

AEDs, basic CPR are just as important (if not more important) but aren't as sexy so people neglect it. Luckily most trauma related classes I've attended do refreshers on AEDS and CPR. The problem is medical training even trauma related isn't really sexy either.

I just wanted to mention the chest seal as he maybe able to fold a Hyfin or FOX and store it under his tourniquet on his PHLster carrier.

[voodoo_man]

I understand and agree Nephrology.

AEDs, basic CPR are just as important (if not more important) but aren't as sexy so people neglect it. Luckily most trauma related classes I've attended do refreshers on AEDS and CPR. The problem is medical training even trauma related isn't really sexy either.

I just wanted to mention the chest seal as he maybe able to fold a Hyfin or FOX and store it under his tourniquet on his PHLster carrier.

I have used both and prefer the FOX seals as they are cheap and small. They can also be used instead of bandages over bleeding wounds due to how they stick, especially when compounded with pressure (although I'd recommend using a bandage if you have one first).

[Pennzoil]

I have used both and prefer the FOX seals as they are cheap and small. They can also be used instead of bandages over bleeding wounds due to how they stick, especially when compounded with pressure (although I'd recommend using a bandage if you have one first).

Good feedback! Thanks

[Nephrology]

I have used both and prefer the FOX seals as they are cheap and small. They can also be used instead of bandages over bleeding wounds due to how they stick, especially when compounded with pressure (although I'd recommend using a bandage if you have one first).

Good feedback! Thanks

I have used neither, but research from the Naval Medical Center Portsmouth looked at HyFin, SAM and Sentinel brands and found them to be equally effective. Unable to find anything on the FOX brand specifically.

[voodoo_man]

I have used neither, but research from the Naval Medical Center Portsmouth looked at HyFin, SAM and Sentinel brands and found them to be equally effective. Unable to find anything on the FOX brand specifically.

FOX is from the the Celox brand. I switched over to Celox a few years ago (2015) after seeing speaking with a rep at warrior expo and getting a few samples for myself and the guys I work with. We ended up using one within two weeks of that and when I tell you the Celox RAPID works, I say so with firsthand experience. I would highly recommend it and make it a yearly gift (as well as request for gift) for people I work with.

One other thing I want point out is that FOX seals are small, 6x6 inches and were made to be folded and still work, I keep them folded in various pouches and bags, especially when at work. They have not failed to do what I want them to do yet. HALO and HyFin seals are good too, I have a HALO seal in my AFAK currently and FOX seals on my chest rig.