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Thread: Vicker's explanation of how to use a DA/SA

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    This thread was not started to critique LAV or his ability to control recoil, take that shit else where. In the spirit of the thread I'm interested to hear other DA/SA experts opinion on this and how they run a DA/SA
    Well put. Vickers isn't double tapping targets in a match, he's demonstrating for a camera.
    "Swing your leaders wide old man!"

  2. #12
    Member Paul Sharp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    ... In the spirit of the thread I'm interested to hear other DA/SA experts opinion on this and how they run a DA/SA
    Not a DA/SA expert but I'm a diligent student of the gun. I flip and press as taught by Rogers, Claude Werner and DR Middlebrooks. DR is the one I learned it from in a hands on manner. I reinforced and/or deepened my understanding of the technique through conversations with guys like Claude and Les Pepperoni. I've wrote about that in previous posts on this forum and TPI. I find it interesting that when you watch the slo-mo of Vicker's trigger technique you see him flip his finger forward, then make contact with the trigger and begin the SA press. It's a stretch for me to say but here goes; I think mentally and verbally Larry is approaching the trigger in a way that's incongruent with his physical approach.

    In other words;

    1) Mentally/verbally - roll through, now reset, take up the slack and press.

    2) Physically - Flip and press.
    "There is magic in misery. You need to constantly fail. Always bite off more than you can chew, put yourself in situations where you don't succeed then really analyze why you didn't succeed." - Dean Karnazes www.sbgillinois.com

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Is it just me, or does it seem like The LAV gets an awful lot of muzzle rise, for shooting 9mm through a heavy, empty weight pistol?

    Attachment 16927
    Not sure, but I doubt many have been filmed with a handgun fired at these frame-rates. I would crane-kick a nun to see what Ben Stoeger or Bob Vogel's recoil control REALLY looks like at this frame rate.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Sharp View Post
    Not a DA/SA expert but I'm a diligent student of the gun. I flip and press as taught by Rogers, Claude Werner and DR Middlebrooks. DR is the one I learned it from in a hands on manner. I reinforced and/or deepened my understanding of the technique through conversations with guys like Claude and Les Pepperoni. I've wrote about that in previous posts on this forum and TPI. I find it interesting that when you watch the slo-mo of Vicker's trigger technique you see him flip his finger forward, then make contact with the trigger and begin the SA press. It's a stretch for me to say but here goes; I think mentally and verbally Larry is approaching the trigger in a way that's incongruent with his physical approach.

    In other words;

    1) Mentally/verbally - roll through, now reset, take up the slack and press.

    2) Physically - Flip and press.
    I was hoping you would come back and chat more. Interesting. I guess as someone who put minimal effort into DA/SA I have a hard time understanding flip and press. You apply that to all pistols?

  5. #15
    Member Paltares8's Avatar
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    I'd also like to hear some other peoples' thoughts on this. I've been getting much better with my double action trigger work, but am always open to suggestions. It is getting more natural and requiring less, if any, conscious thought, but I'm also not nearly at the level of shooting I'd like to be.

    And in the time it takes me to write that 3 people chime in....lol
    Last edited by Paltares8; 05-26-2017 at 06:13 PM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    This thread was not started to critique LAV or his ability to control recoil, take that shit else where. In the spirit of the thread I'm interested to hear other DA/SA experts opinion on this and how they run a DA/SA
    Okay, okay Well, I wouldn't say I'm a DA/SA expert by any stretch, but at one point I made Prod GM with a CZ. I don't fundamentally disagree with anything he's teaching here. That's pretty much what I used to do-- treat the DA and SA differently. Because unless you're a hardcore presser, you have to. Changing gears takes discipline and practice, as anyone who's taken DA/SA seriously can attest.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GunRacer View Post
    Okay, okay Well, I wouldn't say I'm a DA/SA expert by any stretch, but at one point I made Prod GM with a CZ. I don't fundamentally disagree with anything he's teaching here. That's pretty much what I used to do-- treat the DA and SA differently. Because unless you're a hardcore presser, you have to. Changing gears takes discipline and practice, as anyone who's taken DA/SA seriously can attest.
    Cool, thanks for contributing. Do you think of the DA pull as a roll through also? I have heard someone, can't remember who, describe it as rowing a paddle.

  8. #18
    Member Paul Sharp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    I was hoping you would come back and chat more. Interesting. I guess as someone who put minimal effort into DA/SA I have a hard time understanding flip and press. You apply that to all pistols?
    Yes sir, as well as shotguns, and rifles. This way I don't have to worry about learning the reset of each weapon. The trigger is simply a speed bump in between my finger and the front strap. I think that terminology came from one of the Barnhart Performance guys at an FBI range but it might well have come from Claude. If I think about it as simply a speed bump and my finger speed is regulated by the relationship of target-distance-difficulty it mentally frees me from a lot of limiting thought around triggers, particularly DA/SA triggers. I'm not sure if that's making any sense, I guess maybe a better way of putting it is my trigger finger movement from front of the trigger guard to front strap is smooth and undisturbed by any obstruction aka trigger found within the trigger guard.
    "There is magic in misery. You need to constantly fail. Always bite off more than you can chew, put yourself in situations where you don't succeed then really analyze why you didn't succeed." - Dean Karnazes www.sbgillinois.com

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    Cool, thanks for contributing. Do you think of the DA pull as a roll through also? I have heard someone, can't remember who, describe it as rowing a paddle.
    Heck, I don't know. Rowing a paddle sounds like a better description to me. I think we're getting caught up in analogies here. Does it really matter how it feels if you don't disturb the sights?

    Anyways, how I would prep a DA trigger always depended more on the target than anything.

  10. #20
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    I just kinda roll through every trigger press. I'm no expert shooter and I definitely like Larry's suggested drill, but I disagree with his recommendation of how to best shoot a TDA gun.

    Like Paul, I don't change the way I manipulate the trigger or even finger placement when I shoot a different gun. Very often I find myself shooting "socially" or that is to say, with friends or family. In those cases, I bring the "bag o'guns" and end up shooting a few different types, but the mechanics of the trigger press is always the same...press the trigger without disturbing the sights. It's a smooth, continuous press with minimal tension on the trigger finger and maximum grip with the weak hand.

    That's why I don't like some​ pistols that make it hard for me to get my preferred trigger reach and why I modified my 1911 to use a short trigger. It's also why I like Beretta more than CZ for a DA pistol. I keep my technique so consistent to the point where I change guns to match with it rather than change technique to match my gun.

    Some triggers are shorter, some are heavier...but it doesn't really make a difference when you boil it down to marksmanship fundamentals.

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    Last edited by 45dotACP; 05-26-2017 at 06:31 PM.

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