Vicker's explanation of how to use a DA/SA

[farscott]

I like to explain it as gripping the gun hard enough until you see tremors then back off just enough for the tremors to go away. I don't push pull. I clamp down on the gun trying to squeeze my palms together through the gun. I grip as hard as I can with my left and just hard enough with my right to still allow me to manipulate the trigger cleanly. I'm no expert, but that's what I do. As you get more accustomed to gripping hard on the gun it becomes second nature and you rarely have to think about it other than training tune ups in focussed dry practice or live fire.

A great way to teach this to new shooters is to shake their hand using the same amount of pressure you use on the gun. A very good instructor I have trained with a bunch illustrates this by walking down the line and shaking everyone's support hand with the same pressure he uses on the gun. Most new shooters are shocked by the amount of pressure he applies. It's a good way to illustrate the point and set the stage for his trigger press discussion.

Thanks for the explanation. I am going to try the squeeze the palms through the gun and to eliminate push-pull.

[beenalongtime]

I have read something in this thread that makes me realize I don't know what an abbreviation means. This will seem like a stupid question to a lot of you, but, there are those new here, who haven't yet found a/the abbreviation explanation section (couldn't find it).
So what is a LEM trigger then? I thought it stood for (L)aw (E)nforcement (M)odel and was more about the gun in general (extra magazines etc)?
Won't learn if I don't ask.
Thanks

[BobLoblaw]

I agree with Clobb. Telling myself how to press DA vs SA is like saying "left, right, left, right" to make sure I walk correctly. The force on the trigger is the same but the size of your target determines how fast you apply said force.

[RJ]

I have read something in this thread that makes me realize I don't know what an abbreviation means. This will seem like a stupid question to a lot of you, but, there are those new here, who haven't yet found a/the abbreviation explanation section (couldn't find it).
So what is a LEM trigger then? I thought it stood for (L)aw (E)nforcement (M)odel and was more about the gun in general (extra magazines etc)?
Won't learn if I don't ask.
Thanks

Welcome to p-f. The LEM is HK's Double Action Only trigger, available on several hammer-fired guns:

For example, from HK USA for the P30SK:

"...And like its larger frame counterparts, the P30SK is available in multiple trigger firing modes including HK’s enhanced double action only “Law Enforcement Modification (LEM).” For the P30SK, the LEM trigger is configured with a “light strike V1” setup — requiring approximately 5.4 pounds-force to pull the trigger."

http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/p30sk/

Probably the best discussion of the LEM is here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....Street+trigger

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not being a DA/SA transition type, I'm wondering how much this is all academic under pretty low stress range practice. There are two trigger pull motor sequence which you have to launch out of your motor memory. You have to 'recall' them (not consciously) to execute them. But complex motor programs can be incorrectly recalled under stress. I'd be interested to see if someone in a real critical incident does this? Have someone run 50 yards at speed (not me!), have a targets that takes two shots quickly - . You get to the stop line, have to fire to avoid 'being shot' yourself. Do folks actually use two methods or just pull the trigger in the same manner. Or, you have to use only one hand as we 'disable' one under some stress and speed. Do these nuances go away?

So you see someone make a furtive movement, come up with a gun, etc. I think we see that many shots are made with one hand, while moving, backing up, etc. - your motor systems are going to bother with this?

Just a thought. It is an argument for one trigger pull and that starts the whole DA/SA fight again. Anecdotely - folks forget to take off the safety on 1911s in a match even though they have practiced that into the ground. I commented once that I saw it when folks didn't have their classic draw to the get gun into action. That breaks the motor memory recall. So why expect this sequence to activate if everything else is going to hell?

Personally, we had a stage where we had to shoot a target 'gangster' style one handed (for grins). The first shot from my 1911 really hurt. I can shoot one handed no problem. But with the different angle, something grip wise screwed up. Ouch! My conscious mind said - grip, Idiot - and the rest of the targets no problem.

[GardoneVT]

Not being a DA/SA transition type, I'm wondering how much this is all academic under pretty low stress range practice.

Once one gets to a certain skill level with a DA/SA pistol,running it is cognitively identical to a pistol with a singular trigger system. I don't shoot my Beretta with the distinction of "DA" vs "SA" - I just run the gun.

While there may be some quick studies who grasp that skill level instantly ,I assuredly was not one of these folks.It took time for me to get to that level of comfort. When I dry fire it's a personal goal to get as many DA repetitions as I do SA. Building skill with a DA pistol is not difficult, but it does take some more planning then just picking up the gun and shooting.


Frankly -not to be Mr Pessimism - LAVs video is basically preaching to the choir. 99% of ordinary shooters will either carry a striker fired option, a 1911, or holster a DA/SA pistol cocked before carrying hammer down. Berettas and Sigs are basically range toys ; the serious use gun today is something square with a plastic frame and striker fired action.

[StraitR]

Clearly, everyone is in agreement that pulling the trigger without disrupting the sights is the answer and having a strong grip is a huge benefit. So, it's definitely simple, but the rub is that it's not easy. If it were, there would be no reason for PF and everyone would shoot like TGO and Robert Vogel.

And while I think grip strength certainly plays a role, I don't think it's fair to say you can't talk about trigger pull without talking about grip strength. That may be the case with two handed shooting, but not necessarily the case with SHO/WHO. If you're Magnus Samuelsson or some young strong dude that laughs at COC #3, then you need to know absolutely nothing about the technical aspects of pulling the trigger with a two hand grip. For the rest of us mortals, and anyone that doesn't exclusively shoot two handed, the pursuit of a proper trigger pull that helps discharge the gun with minimal movement of the sights is often a lifetime journey.

ETA: For better or worse, I also treat every trigger the same, and make no distinction between DA/SA, SAO, or SFA. I believe this was the source of my frustration and quick abandonment of the LEM.

[GJM]

I would say grip technique, which incorporates your strength, how your technique, and your willingness/awareness of deploying technique and strength.

[LSP552]

Not being a DA/SA transition type, I'm wondering how much this is all academic under pretty low stress range practice. There are two trigger pull motor sequence which you have to launch out of your motor memory. You have to 'recall' them (not consciously) to execute them. But complex motor programs can be incorrectly recalled under stress. I'd be interested to see if someone in a real critical incident does this? Have someone run 50 yards at speed (not me!), have a targets that takes two shots quickly - . You get to the stop line, have to fire to avoid 'being shot' yourself. Do folks actually use two methods or just pull the trigger in the same manner. Or, you have to use only one hand as we 'disable' one under some stress and speed. Do these nuances go away?

So you see someone make a furtive movement, come up with a gun, etc. I think we see that many shots are made with one hand, while moving, backing up, etc. - your motor systems are going to bother with this?

Just a thought. It is an argument for one trigger pull and that starts the whole DA/SA fight again. Anecdotely - folks forget to take off the safety on 1911s in a match even though they have practiced that into the ground. I commented once that I saw it when folks didn't have their classic draw to the get gun into action. That breaks the motor memory recall. So why expect this sequence to activate if everything else is going to hell?

Personally, we had a stage where we had to shoot a target 'gangster' style one handed (for grins). The first shot from my 1911 really hurt. I can shoot one handed no problem. But with the different angle, something grip wise screwed up. Ouch! My conscious mind said - grip, Idiot - and the rest of the targets no problem.

There have been so many people put in the dirt with DA/SA guns that there is no question they can be applied under stress. There have also been a ton of screw ups and poor shooting with every action type ever made. In the end, it comes down to training and the individual's ability to perform under stress.

[Peally]

I'm not an expert but I always just pulled through it like any other trigger pull, it was just heavier. YMMV