Synthetic (Simulation) Range

[dhoover1]

Thanks for allowing me to join the group. I found this website a few weeks ago and have been looking through the forums and like what I’ve seen so far. Everyone seems to be really helpful. I have been a military service member (Navy) for the last 20 and I am retiring soon. Over the years, I have shot almost exclusively courtesy of the taxpayer. I have been through multiple pistol/carbine courses, CQC, MOUT, small arms instructor courses etc. etc. One of the most valuable courses I have been through in all of that live fire training was a synthetic shooting course (some call it simulation) using lasers/airsoft rifles and your duty pistol. I have seen a few threads mention it and some asked about the validity of the training and I can say that if you set up the course properly, you can achieve a high degree of fidelity in synthetic training as compared to live fire. In 2014 another small arms instructor and I along with the civilian company that we contract for synthetic training trained a group of 500 personnel on a rigorous course of fire and then immediately took them to the live fire range for validation once they demonstrated proficiency on the synthetic course of fire they had previously never conducted. Of the 500, we had 99.4% qualify. After looking at what it would take for me to sustain my training in live fire range costs, I estimate that it would take about a $12,000 to 15,000 toll on my pocket book annually as well as it being a one-and-a-half-hour round trip commute to the range. Looking at the value of synthetic training, I am putting a synthetic range in my home later this year (my retirement gift). Currently I am looking at the smokeless range combo pack from laser-ammo.com (I am not a salesperson or in any way affiliated with them). My upfront costs for the system will be under $3,000 and then maintenance would be only a few hundred per year. That would get their full software suite and also two pistol laser kits, and an airsoft rifle and laser kits as well as projector and screen. I have not found any post of anyone stating they have a synthetic range but I thought I would ask if anyone does and if so what do you have? What would you do differently if you could? What would you add to your existing system? How much did it cost? etc.

[StraitR]

First, thank you for your service and welcome to PF.

I've not read of anyone here having a setup like this in their home, and I'm not familiar with the Laser-ammo.com systems myself, but hopefully someone will be along with some feedback. It looks interesting and I'm curious how well these work since I have an affinity for firearm simulators.

In the early 2000's I worked for a simulation company called FATS, now Meggitt Defense Systems FATS, where I did installation and technical teaching. I also facilitated a FATS/Lockheed Martin joint venture Virtual Combat Convoy Training system for the Marine Corps in the desert behind 29 Palms for a year. Our average system was about $75,000, the VCCT system was about $10million, and all weapons were bonafide serialized functional firearms gutted for laser and pneumatic installation. Seeing the likes of MP5's and M4's milled out to become air recoiling laser guns was heartbreaking. The dumpster was full of KAC vert grips and rail panels on a daily basis. Anyway, welcome aboard, and enjoy your time here.

[dhoover1]

Thanks Craig. The cost of the systems has come down considerably over the years. I went through FATS about 18 years ago and the things you can do with range simulation software expands what the traditional video based system allows you to do. The smokeless range has a branching video add-on that allows you to record your own video situations, define your target hit areas etc. I am a firm believer in the synthetic training format for numerous reasons. 1 As I said above, it is cheaper due to multiple factors. 2. it is a time saver (transit to and from the range, reloading, range being called cold on you etc.) 3. It can provide you valuable feedback so that you can keep track of your progress 4. You aren't restricted to range rules (drawing, reloads, rate of fire, etc.) 5. I can train someone (family/friends) in a completely safe environment before moving them to the range. 6. You can do training you would never do in live fire due to risk, i.e. fog of war situations / blue on blue situations etc. and 7. I have seen it validated first hand as transferring to live fire. The laser-ammo.com system looks comparable to what I've used previously. I am going to contact the company today to inquire if within the software there is an ability to have user accounts for individual shooters, i.e. me, my wife, and later my son so that you can see your historical performance compared to current performance on drills etc.

[Highplains45]

I currently use Beamhit, SIRT, MILO Range and reviewing some other systems. Dvorak Instruments makes a variety of laser equipped recoil systems. FLETC and RCMP have had quite some success in this area.

FLETC Journal issues of Spring 2011, Fall 2013 and Fall 2016 give some insight. Gregory Kratzig, recently of the RCMP has written extensively of simulation environments to include firearms training.

Send me an email address and I'll send you what I have.

[heyscooter]

In the early 2000's I worked for a simulation company called FATS, now Meggitt Defense Systems FATS, where I did installation and technical teaching. I also facilitated a FATS/Lockheed Martin joint venture Virtual Combat Convoy Training system for the Marine Corps in the desert behind 29 Palms for a year. Our average system was about $75,000, the VCCT system was about $10million, and all weapons were bonafide serialized functional firearms gutted for laser and pneumatic installation. Seeing the likes of MP5's and M4's milled out to become air recoiling laser guns was heartbreaking. The dumpster was full of KAC vert grips and rail panels on a daily basis.

Not to add to the heartbreak, but every single FATS system I run into now just collects dust due to software and hardware problems. I took a look at one of the milled M4s you're talking about the other day. They really got into the guts of the whole upper...

[HCM]

I currently use Beamhit, SIRT, MILO Range and reviewing some other systems. Dvorak Instruments makes a variety of laser equipped recoil systems. FLETC and RCMP have had quite some success in this area.

FLETC Journal issues of Spring 2011, Fall 2013 and Fall 2016 give some insight. Gregory Kratzig, recently of the RCMP has written extensively of simulation environments to include firearms training.

Send me an email address and I'll send you what I have.

There is considerable value My Agency used Beamhit in the past but it has fallen out of use in favor of the "Range" programs available within our MILO systems. MILO is good as long as you have a place to set it up and leave it set up as set up requires a bit of tweaking.

FLETC used FATS back in the day but now uses Laser Shot, which, I believe is also in use by the U.S. Army.

[dhoover1]

Are any of the MILO or Beamhit systems available for sale to private individuals? They seem like they would be considerably more expensive. The recoil system from Dvorak looks like it could be a great addition to the system for the pistol.

[StraitR]

Not to add to the heartbreak, but every single FATS system I run into now just collects dust due to software and hardware problems. I took a look at one of the milled M4s you're talking about the other day. They really got into the guts of the whole upper...

No worries, I've been gone for over ten years, I'm sure the technology has changed a lot. They're MS based computers, like any other, and require equal levels of knowledge and maintenance. You wouldn't believe the files and pron I found downloaded on our systems from bored LEOs and Marines surfing the internet. It was a wonder they worked as well as they did.

[HCM]

Are any of the MILO or Beamhit systems available for sale to private individuals? They seem like they would be considerably more expensive. The recoil system from Dvorak looks like it could be a great addition to the system for the pistol.

Telluric group sells SIRT pistols and SIRT AR bolts modified to shoot IR lasers which register on Beamhit targets. This is likely the most affordable option.

https://telluricgroup.com/products/beamhit-target

https://telluricgroup.com/collections/dry-fire-tools

https://telluricgroup.com/collection...s/sirt-ar-bolt

[heyscooter]

No worries, I've been gone for over ten years, I'm sure the technology has changed a lot. They're MS based computers, like any other, and require equal levels of knowledge and maintenance. You wouldn't believe the files and pron I found downloaded on our systems from bored LEOs and Marines surfing the internet. It was a wonder they worked as well as they did.

I caught your post before you edited it, interesting stuff honestly. It's a thing I don't know a lot about (because everywhere I go where we allegedly have them they can't be used due to issues). Thanks.