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Thread: Self Defense: The process of shooting your target after the decision to fire is made

  1. #21
    There is a very real disconnect between training and what actually happens during a deadly force confrontation involving a firearm - specifically in a legal defensive gun use by a ccw citizen or LEO.

    Personally I have experienced nearly every sort of adrenaline related handicap from slow/matrix motion to audible exclusive and especially tunnel vision. There are two things I have learned will definitely happen during these types of events, #1 is you be affected in some physiological way and #2 is you will be on autopilot the entire time. The more of these events you experience the better you will be able to handle the adrenaline, but you will get it every single time. The more training you have for these types of events the faster and more accurately you will find yourself overcoming them.

    Scanning and breathing are the #1 to break tunnel vision. Literally thinking about breathing and moving your head around and focusing on other things will break your tunnel vision and make your vision open up during a high adrenaline situation.

    Specifically in reference to the OP, I have responded to numerous LE and ccw citizen involved shootings, many of which I participated in the investigation after the fact. I would say that the percentage of persons involved in a defensive shoot for the first time discharged their pistols one to three times and most impact points were around the hands/arms/chest where the hands (read weapon) would have been. One person I remember was knocked to the ground and shot the BG through the fist as it came down to hit him due to the age/size disparity.

    Humans can only focus on one point accurately at one time, as such we are forced to choose what to focus on consciously all the time, we mostly do this autonomically, except when we are using the sights of a pistol. One question I ask LEO's and ccw citizens who have been involved in shoots is always if they actually saw the sights of their pistols and the answer is usually "no" to "only after the first or second shot." We train to use the sights, especially the front sights but people do not seem to actually do that. Or. Do those people actually see the front sight and simply do not remember they did due to adrenaline? I've been in that situation, especially in FoF, I do not consciously use my front sight by after reviewing video from different angles I have seen my eyes track my front sight and then discharge the sim gun. This was a huge learning point for me.

    I believe that proper training will allow to go on auto pilot for the technical operation of the draw stroke and pistol use while leaving you to consider the tactical nature of the confrontation.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    When a person sees a lethal threat and decides to present the pistol and fire do they change their focus from the reason (gun, knife) and look at where they want the bullet to go (i.e. high chest)? Or do they plan on looking at both at the same time?
    Interesting thread, and some good info to consider. I don't really have an answer for what a person will do but I think it is assumed to effectively shoot the focus should be on the front sight.
    Do some FOF training with unknown variable scenarios and I bet what you do will be different than what you think you will do.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Perhaps the doctors can chime in, but I don't think so. I don't know that the human adult's pupil can drop much below 1mm or so. Looking through a 1mm hole in a piece of paper directly in front of my eye, I can still see a pretty significant field of view. I also am not sure that pupil constriction occurs during tunnel vision. Your pupils expand when problem solving and when surprised, IIRC.
    This is certainly not a definitive answer about the concept of tunnel vision, but physiologically, the fight-or-flight response is mediated by the sympathetic arm of the autonomic nervous system - which most definitely results in pupillary dilation. Interestingly, this affects our ability to accommodate to some degree, making it more difficult to bring that focal plane back to front sight distance. I'm not an ophthalmologist, so that's about as much detail as I can go in to.
    Last edited by jkb4c; 05-24-2017 at 07:56 PM.

  4. #24
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    One thing I noticed personally during my last couple of shooting matches is that I would get so target focused that I would forget to look at my damn sights.
    I'd get the gun up, pull the trigger, then it was like, "oh yeah, sights!", and then I would aim.
    This suggest a few things I need to work on...
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    One thing I noticed personally during my last couple of shooting matches is that I would get so target focused that I would forget to look at my damn sights.
    I'd get the gun up, pull the trigger, then it was like, "oh yeah, sights!", and then I would aim.
    This suggest a few things I need to work on...
    I do not want this to come off as rude or condescending in anyway so I want to preface it by stating I do not intend for it to sound that way.

    Competition and real world defensive firearm application are as far apart from each other as two can be, while still being in the same room.

    The level of adrenaline due to the stakes is so high that there is simply no comparison.
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  6. #26
    Member Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I do not want this to come off as rude or condescending in anyway so I want to preface it by stating I do not intend for it to sound that way.

    Competition and real world defensive firearm application are as far apart from each other as two can be, while still being in the same room.

    The level of adrenaline due to the stakes is so high that there is simply no comparison.

    Please, for the love of PF, can we not talk about competitive shooting and defensive shooting in the same thread.
    i used to wannabe

  7. #27
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I do not want this to come off as rude or condescending in anyway so I want to preface it by stating I do not intend for it to sound that way.

    Competition and real world defensive firearm application are as far apart from each other as two can be, while still being in the same room.

    The level of adrenaline due to the stakes is so high that there is simply no comparison.
    Think of it this way- I never noticed this during my normal practice routine, mainly because of the usual range rules against shooting from the holster, rapid fire, et al.
    Even though it's not the same as "on da streetz", one does get put under some pressure, and thus one also can find weakness in one's technique that would otherwise not come out.

    If I'm derping out during relatively low pressure matches, I will likely have the same problem during high stress encounters. Which means that is something to work on.

    And please don't let the words "shooting match" hang you up- I could have found out the same thing either at a class, or shooting drills at speed.
    Last edited by Joe in PNG; 05-24-2017 at 08:18 PM.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    Think of it this way- I never noticed this during my normal practice routine, mainly because of the usual range rules against shooting from the holster, rapid fire, et al.
    Even though it's not the same as "on da streetz", one does get put under some pressure, and thus one also can find weakness in one's technique that would otherwise not come out.

    If I'm derping out during relatively low pressure matches, I will likely have the same problem during high stress encounters. Which means that is something to work on.

    And please don't let the words "shooting match" hang you up- I could have found out the same thing either at a class, or shooting drills at speed.
    Induced pressure and real world stress are two completely different things. They may manifest very similarly, but they are most definitely not.

    Do not begin to think of something as it will happen because of other things, you are setting yourself up for it to happen. Real life confrontations have a way of applying your training very specifically.
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  9. #29
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    This is likely the part where I advise against letting personal conflicts turn the thread into a shitshow.

  10. #30
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Last edited by Joe in PNG; 05-24-2017 at 08:40 PM.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

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