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Thread: Self Defense: The process of shooting your target after the decision to fire is made

  1. #11
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    See a handgun fall? Probably not. That's too fine a level of detail for you subconscious. Plus your brain "fills in the gaps" and what you think you see may not be accurate (if you're really expecting a gun, a cell phone looks more like a gun than if you aren't expecting a gun, etc.) Seeing a weapon fall is a pretty modern way to tell your opponent is out of the fight and your subconscious isn't looking for that. No, your subconscious is much more concerned with your opponent folding in on himself, spinning to flee, big movements like limbs collapsing or the body falling, etc. Things that were relevant in feet/fist/tooth combat. Then it alerts you conscious to check out that development, and then you might notice the gun has dropped. What you'll probably notice, though, is that the opponent is no longer presenting a threat.

  2. #12
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    Just attended a two day pistol training with Wayne Dobbs and Darryl Bolke and we covered this exact topic. They are big believers in the failure drill (they've both been in gun fights and train LE) that once the decision is made, 100% focus with two shots center mass, assess (milliseconds) and a shot to the head if the bad guy is still in front of you and haven't started down. We spent a good bit of time on this.

    One of this big reasons they advocate this for this for LE & civilians, other than it's very effective in stopping the threat, it that you are not pumping a bunch of rounds into a bg. Darryl trained LE for years and investigated something like 70 shootings with LEO's and all of those that did this, it was something like 34, were considered a good shoot and none we charged for excessive force in stopping the threat. So the plan for them was to do exactly as they did in their training, which to incorporate the FD.

    Obviously circumstances may dictate something else but this was the primary plan.

  3. #13
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    A lot of discussion about what one "can" or "will" see in a self defense shooting really do depend on too many factors to make generalizations. I think Mr. White succintly described his focus on the process of shooting, and his focus there in (as usual). As for training, and how it can impact this.process....yes it can. Stress inoculation training has as it's purpose helping the control or delay the "fight or flight" response, which warriors have for ages realized can impede high level functioning in combat. This type of training helps to mimic actual experience in combat (which is itself a form of "training"), without the risks involved. "Experience is the best teacher" is a cliche for a reason. The lessons are more immediate and are more readily absorbed. As an example, take a freshly trained probie right out of FTO. He and I respond together to a "Man with a gun" call. Who is going to likely experience the "fight or flight" response more, the probie ...or the Sgt. with 25 years of experience who's gone to hundreds of those calls, been shot at several times, and dropped the hammer himself? I'll be engaging in controlled breathing, actively listening to the radio or asking for more info, and making a plan for arrival. Most new guys won't be in that same space....because the experience is new and unfamiliar, and produces the "F or F" response. This of course can change with each individual depending on the situation and degree of pre incident preparation time.

    I also wanted to mention that many of the studies on this type of thing are using untrained or poorly trained personnel as their subjects....including the Force Science stuff. Most here will agree that what passes for LE Training in most agencies is inadequate. Such studies don't accurately reflect what someone with proper and ongoing training might be capable of (with the exception of some of the UK studies Force Science assisted in).

    Lastly, the discussion of autonomic response and it's affect on pupil reaction, as well as the physiology of eye muscle response re: focusing isn't completely accurate, per my understanding. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the relevant physiology could chime in here?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    See a handgun fall? Probably not. That's too fine a level of detail for you subconscious. Plus your brain "fills in the gaps" and what you think you see may not be accurate (if you're really expecting a gun, a cell phone looks more like a gun than if you aren't expecting a gun, etc.) Seeing a weapon fall is a pretty modern way to tell your opponent is out of the fight and your subconscious isn't looking for that. No, your subconscious is much more concerned with your opponent folding in on himself, spinning to flee, big movements like limbs collapsing or the body falling, etc. Things that were relevant in feet/fist/tooth combat. Then it alerts you conscious to check out that development, and then you might notice the gun has dropped. What you'll probably notice, though, is that the opponent is no longer presenting a threat.

    I guess where we disagree is that you believe your peripheral vision is still there and I think tunnel vision is a physical construct of the pupil that limits the vision. But even considering this, my whole idea is that the hard focus on the front sight didn't seem to degrade my ability to see changes in the small tunnel of my vision. I saw the subjects shirt move to my right. I saw the movement and began tracking him to my right. He was spinning after being shot by my lethal force backup with an AR. I then saw his shoulder come into my field of view. It was moving right and down. I knew he must be falling and stopped tracking my front sight. I went to soft focus and evaluated the bad guy. That was all done in a one, two, three fashion not at the same time. But changes to the aspect of the bad guy's gun, knife etc is severely limited unless that object is on or close to my chosen target.

    So the real question is, why does it matter?

    The obvious is the legal question of when did you stop shooting.
    Second is the moral question of when should I stop shooting.

    The answer to those questions is when they drop the gun or stop shooting, the answer physically for the good guy is to empty the magazine in them because they haven't seen the pistol fall. Yes, some people loose their mind and empty the pistol into the target because of sheer fear. But others are doing what we trained them to do. We just trained them incorrectly by asking them to do something that they simply can't do.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  5. #15
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    I think tunnel vision is a physical construct of the pupil that limits the vision.
    Perhaps the doctors can chime in, but I don't think so. I don't know that the human adult's pupil can drop much below 1mm or so. Looking through a 1mm hole in a piece of paper directly in front of my eye, I can still see a pretty significant field of view. I also am not sure that pupil constriction occurs during tunnel vision. Your pupils expand when problem solving and when surprised, IIRC.

    It's not the physical structure that's the problem, it's the huge amount of brain power required to translate what comes into the eye into what we think of as "vision". I know I've got a book on the topic around here somewhere. Your brain is definitely the limiting factor, though, not the eye. I'll try to recall which book it is and put a link up.

  6. #16
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    A lot of discussion about what one "can" or "will" see in a self defense shooting really do depend on too many factors to make generalizations. I think Mr. White succintly described his focus on the process of shooting, and his focus there in (as usual). As for training, and how it can impact this.process....yes it can. Stress inoculation training has as it's purpose helping the control or delay the "fight or flight" response, which warriors have for ages realized can impede high level functioning in combat. This type of training helps to mimic actual experience in combat (which is itself a form of "training"), without the risks involved. "Experience is the best teacher" is a cliche for a reason. The lessons are more immediate and are more readily absorbed. As an example, take a freshly trained probie right out of FTO. He and I respond together to a "Man with a gun" call. Who is going to likely experience the "fight or flight" response more, the probie ...or the Sgt. with 25 years of experience who's gone to hundreds of those calls, been shot at several times, and dropped the hammer himself? I'll be engaging in controlled breathing, actively listening to the radio or asking for more info, and making a plan for arrival. Most new guys won't be in that same space....because the experience is new and unfamiliar, and produces the "F or F" response. This of course can change with each individual depending on the situation and degree of pre incident preparation time.

    I also wanted to mention that many of the studies on this type of thing are using untrained or poorly trained personnel as their subjects....including the Force Science stuff. Most here will agree that what passes for LE Training in most agencies is inadequate. Such studies don't accurately reflect what someone with proper and ongoing training might be capable of (with the exception of some of the UK studies Force Science assisted in).

    Lastly, the discussion of autonomic response and it's affect on pupil reaction, as well as the physiology of eye muscle response re: focusing isn't completely accurate, per my understanding. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the relevant physiology could chime in here?
    Thanks much.

    Can you describe training events that accomplish stress inoculation?

    Is it simunitions in FoF?

    Combatives?

    Those video shoot/no shoot technologies?

    All of the above?
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  7. #17
    Member Buckshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Thanks much.

    Can you describe training events that accomplish stress inoculation?

    Is it simunitions in FoF?

    Combatives?

    Those video shoot/no shoot technologies?

    All of the above?
    I think that creating stress innoculation has a lot to do with the psyche of that particular person. Simulation probably isn't as consistant a stressor for some folk. Some people can learn stress coping at higher levels of competition, combative sports certainly work for many, being exposed to other sorts of dangerous or stressful situations require both working through the problem and have some sort of cost to one's physical well-being can be a proof of one's nerve (auto accidents, fires, major injuries-received or treated). For me, I found being shot at to be a pretty good stress innoculation, but I can't recommended it for most!

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Perhaps the doctors can chime in, but I don't think so. I don't know that the human adult's pupil can drop much below 1mm or so. Looking through a 1mm hole in a piece of paper directly in front of my eye, I can still see a pretty significant field of view. I also am not sure that pupil constriction occurs during tunnel vision. Your pupils expand when problem solving and when surprised, IIRC.

    It's not the physical structure that's the problem, it's the huge amount of brain power required to translate what comes into the eye into what we think of as "vision". I know I've got a book on the topic around here somewhere. Your brain is definitely the limiting factor, though, not the eye. I'll try to recall which book it is and put a link up.
    This.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Perhaps the doctors can chime in, but I don't think so. I don't know that the human adult's pupil can drop much below 1mm or so. Looking through a 1mm hole in a piece of paper directly in front of my eye, I can still see a pretty significant field of view. I also am not sure that pupil constriction occurs during tunnel vision. Your pupils expand when problem solving and when surprised, IIRC.

    It's not the physical structure that's the problem, it's the huge amount of brain power required to translate what comes into the eye into what we think of as "vision". I know I've got a book on the topic around here somewhere. Your brain is definitely the limiting factor, though, not the eye. I'll try to recall which book it is and put a link up.
    I have the same basic understanding and some experience that seems to reinforce this. I believe I read it in the book"Bodily Changes in Pain Hunger, Fear and Rage" which used scientific experiments to document body physiological changes. It is an old book and I have read other works related that used newer test apparatus to support the idea. All information I have found is indicating it is the brain processing and filtering information not the eyes limits or changes. IIRC there are documented changes to the eye including flattening of the cornea and dilation of the pupil to let in more light.

    On the experience front I can only relate anecdotal information when I experienced slow motion (twice) auditory exclusion (twice possibly 3 times) and tunnel vision once. These all occurred in serious car crashes or once while I was water skiing and was almost hit by a boat. In that incident I had all three occur seeing the prop in detail, turning slowly or at least slower than it's real speed and auditory exclusion as the sounds were muffled and my dad driving the boat I was behind yelling for me to drop. I didn't hear him at all. These incidents at the time were all life threatening or at least I thought they were. These are just anecdotal and my experiences so limited in value except to me or added data points.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Thanks much.

    Can you describe training events that accomplish stress inoculation?

    Is it simunitions in FoF?

    Combatives?

    Those video shoot/no shoot technologies?

    All of the above?
    Having done FATS,CAPS,martial arts sparring, man against man competition,paintball and Simunitions I can say that the greater the penalty the greater the benefit when it comes to stress inoculation. Also the more realistic the situation replicates reality the better. FATS is a screen of shoot don't shoot movie of scenarios using a recoiling gun. CAPS is basically the same but used with a real firearm and live ammo where you shoot the screen. These as well as the others except Simunitions all offered some stress but mostly inner stress of not wanting to look bad or make a bad decision(inner or up range stress) where as Simunitions offers downrange stress where I may be hurt by something coming from where I am focused,shooting, or concerned or come from 360 degrees. Paintball is similar but since the goal is fun I never got much stress about it.

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