Self Defense: The process of shooting your target after the decision to fire is made

[Wondering Beard]

While I don't have the stats to back it up I think the difference between number of shots fired and/or speed of shots fired is less dependent on revolver's longer trigger as it is on known capacity and speed/complexity of reloading compared to a semi auto. The easiest and likely clearest way to determine if it is trigger pull length or capacity and ease of reloading is to compare how many shots fired when revolver were used to an agency that switched to DAO semi auto with similar length trigger pull. I don't know any off the top of my head but there probably are some.

I don't think it is trigger weight related or NYPD with their heavy triggers would be an obvious source.

Didn't the NYPD issue S&W 5946s (DAO) and P226s (DOA) before they issued Glocks when they moved away from revolvers?

[BehindBlueI's]

I had thought, and this is from some years ago, that back in the day of the revolver the gun got emptied in fights (on average) and that when semi autos were brought in, there was indeed an increase in the amount of shots fired but that after a while (maybe a few years), the average turned out to be 8 shots. There was an argument that LEO revolver shooters, on average, would have shot more (had they more in-gun ammo) but just couldn't while "hi cap" semi auto LEO shooters, on average, didn't shoot anywhere near as much as was expected.

I think this was from an analysis of the NYPD's reports and some other cities. I never delved into the detailed statistics to verify anything, so I'm not sure if it's exactly true and, as I said, this was some years back and I can't really remember the exact source of the analysis and arguments.

Miami-Dade reported shots fired per officer per incident went up slightly. 2.5 shots per revolver carrying officer, 3.7 for pistol carrying officer. Many others have been similar.

While I don't have the stats to back it up I think the difference between number of shots fired and/or speed of shots fired is less dependent on revolver's longer trigger as it is on known capacity and speed/complexity of reloading compared to a semi auto. The easiest and likely clearest way to determine if it is trigger pull length or capacity and ease of reloading is to compare how many shots fired when revolver were used to an agency that switched to DAO semi auto with similar length trigger pull. I don't know any off the top of my head but there probably are some.

I don't think it is trigger weight related or NYPD with their heavy triggers would be an obvious source.

Maybe. I've heard a lot of older guys say it's psychological. I don't think so, but I can't disprove it. I don't have the NY and Miami data on this computer, and don't remember what they transitioned to originally.

[octagon]

I broke out my old copy of NYPD SOP9 from 1994. On pages 45 and 46 there is a chart of number of rounds fired by officers and number of gunfights for each year from 1970-1994. That will help give an idea of how many shots fired per gunfight by officers from year to year but it doesn't accurately answer the question even though it covers revolver years and semi auto years. Also in it it only lists S&W9mm,Sig 9mm and Glock 9mm not the trigger system and I don't recall what they had in place at any one time. Maybe someone with closer ties to NYPD can expand on it. I can post the number of gunfights and number of rounds fired for each year if there is interest. A trend I see in just glossing over it is that the number of gunfights didn't change so much for each decade as much as year to year. It also looks like the number of rounds fired overall each year at perps steadily gets lower as you move from 1970-1994. Again these don't clearly answer the question just part of it.

[BehindBlueI's]

I broke out my old copy of NYPD SOP9 from 1994. On pages 45 and 46 there is a chart of number of rounds fired by officers and number of gunfights for each year from 1970-1994. That will help give an idea of how many shots fired per gunfight by officers from year to year but it doesn't accurately answer the question even though it covers revolver years and semi auto years. Also in it it only lists S&W9mm,Sig 9mm and Glock 9mm not the trigger system and I don't recall what they had in place at any one time. Maybe someone with closer ties to NYPD can expand on it. I can post the number of gunfights and number of rounds fired for each year if there is interest. A trend I see in just glossing over it is that the number of gunfights didn't change so much for each decade as much as year to year. It also looks like the number of rounds fired overall each year at perps steadily gets lower as you move from 1970-1994. Again these don't clearly answer the question just part of it.

Even ammo could matter. One's cadence with a heavy .357 load isn't likely to be the same as with .38 loads. Even if the shooter were near panic, they'd know shooting at angels in the clouds isn't going to help, so recoil recovery times could play into it.

You'd have to account for ammunition, training differences, even the types of shootings. A spike in ambush shootings would change the average number of shots fired even if everything else remained the same, for example.

[Duelist]

Even ammo could matter. One's cadence with a heavy .357 load isn't likely to be the same as with .38 loads. Even if the shooter were near panic, they'd know shooting at angels in the clouds isn't going to help, so recoil recovery times could play into it.

You'd have to account for ammunition, training differences, even the types of shootings. A spike in ambush shootings would change the average number of shots fired even if everything else remained the same, for example.

They also transitioned from RNL (revolvers) and FMJ (semiautos) to JHP, and that will have a huge effect on rounds fired due to terminal effect per round.

[JustOneGun]

I think all of you have hit on the crux of every problem in the shooting community. Okay, maybe just when instructors debate stuff. LOL.

If we say the data says this and gives an answer, it's not in and of itself an answer. It's a trend leading to a theory. We have to use our intellect to find a theory. The problem with many, including some very famous, smart and good shooters is that they mistake theory for truth. So what's a bunch of instructors, newbies, etc to do?

We have to take our theory and see what it does to the trend over time. Buy and use any gun that you want, but that is the main (no, not the only) reason Glock has virtually cornered the market on LEO duty weapons. The upward trends of officers shooting themselves and others didn't materialize. Hmmm...something else was going on. Why? The data won't tell us squat about that. But we did disprove the idea that short action striker fired weapons will increase bad shootings, UD's, etc.

Yet some departments did have problems. The answers to why that was, IMO led to an improvement in LEO training overall, no matter the handgun system chosen.

[octagon]

Even ammo could matter. One's cadence with a heavy .357 load isn't likely to be the same as with .38 loads. Even if the shooter were near panic, they'd know shooting at angels in the clouds isn't going to help, so recoil recovery times could play into it.

You'd have to account for ammunition, training differences, even the types of shootings. A spike in ambush shootings would change the average number of shots fired even if everything else remained the same, for example.

Sure. There are a lot of variables and to account for all of them would result in every incident being an individual set not comparable to any other unless it had the same gun,ammo,officer and circumstances and even then what did the officer gain from the first incident that may have benefited them in the second. The trends and having enough data on similar incidents will at least give some guidance of what may be helping or hurting and affecting the outcome. Elsewhere the SOP9 indicates 38spl duty revolver or off duty revolver with 357 not listed except for perp caliber used. I'm not positive but I believe 38 was the round issued and I don't recall if 357 was permitted or not. Again NYPD is not my area of knowledge .

Data can always be used to cloud an issue as much as clarify one. It becomes less valuable when the data is intended for one purpose and we attempt to use it to determine a different one even if they are similar there can only be correlation and then that will be limited.