It was a great three day course with some solid shooters. It was awesome to see some friends and make new ones.
It was a great three day course with some solid shooters. It was awesome to see some friends and make new ones.
Last edited by karmapolice; 05-23-2017 at 08:29 PM.
Tom is probably the best around at giving you what you need, rather than what you want. I thoroughly enjoyed the class and appreciated it being in my back yard. Good dudes and good shooters make for a nice weekend. The citizens of Oconee County can sleep peacefully at night.
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Last edited by PT Doc; 05-23-2017 at 10:05 PM.
Hi, great review. Can you share any more about this?Originally Posted by acpjunkie
IIRC, it is about consistency over any firearm one may shoot or need to.
Givens hands are in the same spots we expect for a good grip, but his support thumb is pointed up from the joint instead of forward. He then explains how you can either do the same position w your firing hand thumb, or wrap it over your support depending on hand size.
Basically, hard thumbs forward works great on Glocks and a few others, but can impair the function of the gun in many platforms like SIG.
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In addition to what Mr Weems said,
Thumbs up, locks the wrist in a better position than a thumbs forward position. To get a good thumbs forward grip we have to tilt our wrists towards the direction we want our thumbs to go. This posistions our wrists at a 'weaker' posistion than thumbs high. A strong wrist posistion is much preferable for any sort of possible weapons grab scenario, in addition to better control for higher recoiling weapons. Thumbs forward gives greater control in a low recoiling pistol and in a non-social interaction events.
No slight intended to Tom or anyone of similar opinion, but would some dedicated DT/combatives/weapon retention guys chime in on the merits and liabilities of one grip over another in execution of those collateral skills? Does the grip matter, how much, to whom, and in what conditions?
In my places, a wholesale switch to thumbs-forward (FLETC: "reactive shooting") instruction resulted in improved shooter performance across all instructed systems and a variety of metrics, including Sig 226, 228/229, and M9. Admittedly, the training curve for building that grip is a little longer than some others, but it is been a good change. I could see it being a little involved for non-captive audiences and short courses. I have also seen aggressive thumbs-forward gripping less compatible with shooters with assorted joint/tissue issues.
Also, who else is advocating that position? I know Tom is, as well as John Farnam. Who else?
Am interested in more dialogue on this...
Last edited by ST911; 05-24-2017 at 05:51 PM.
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Mr. Farnam does not teach the same grip as does Mr. Givens.
I've tested the grip as taught by Rangemaster versus the thumbs forward grip using a blue gun, and the the "thumbs up" does appear to be a better grip for retention. If I were starting over with the knowledge I now have, I would probably go that route, but it would take more time and ammo than I have available at this point to rewire my brain. I deal with this in my classes with new students by explaining the differences and advantages and telling them to decide from the start which grip they want to use.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
Maybe I'm missing something... They appear substantially identical- high grip, high thumbs, support side wrist broken off line from the forearm. I don't recall exact verbiage of the instruction during Tom and John's classes, but my class notes from each reflect the similarity as well. Along with their books. At a minimum, much more alike than different?
Makes sense.I've tested the grip as taught by Rangemaster versus the thumbs forward grip using a blue gun, and the the "thumbs up" does appear to be a better grip for retention. If I were starting over with the knowledge I now have, I would probably go that route, but it would take more time and ammo than I have available at this point to rewire my brain. I deal with this in my classes with new students by explaining the differences and advantages and telling them to decide from the start which grip they want to use.
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I have only trained once with Mr. Farnam. In that class, he taught having both elbows bent with the pistol pulled in toward the face and with the support hand thumb actually pressing against the slide. He wasn't center-axis-relock, but he was significantly pulled inward so that the pistol could be driven forward and then yanked back in the event of a gun grab.
I've done seven classes as a Rangemaster student and several more as an assistant instructor. Tom's strong arm is fully extended, and he doesn't teach pressing against the slide with the support hand thumb.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
Okay, that's clearer, thanks.
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