A second strike question - ever happen?

[LangdonTactical]

I think this falls into art not science, and I would never tell someone else what they should do. However in the example where another press takes .25, a TRB takes about 2.5 seconds, and there is a 100 percent chance a bear would run me over in the 2.5 seconds it takes to TRB, I would gladly invest .25 for some probability of success. And if it didn't work, it is only adding 10 percent to the time it takes to TRB.

I view auto forwarding in a similar light. I know how to do it, and find it faster, but with some probability of inducing a stoppage. I prefer not to do it, but there are some circumstances I would be willing to take the risk associated with it, for its greater speed.

This^^

I have been shooting TDA guns for a really long time. I have developed the habit of pulling the trigger a second time on a failure to fire before doing a TRB. I have had the gun fire on the second strike many times, and I would give the second hammer fall about a 70% success rate in my experience with a broad scope of different ammo. For me, it is worth the .25 to pull the trigger again.

Now, would I teach that as a department policy to a large angency that uses TDA gun???? More than likely not.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I feel that the biggest benefit to second-strike capability is not having to reset the gun during dry practice.

[BN]

I've thought about this and I think I would probably reflexively pull through for the second strike if I was shooting a series of shots with a DA of any kind.

A story from the past. I was shooting with Ken Hackathorn and a group of his friends. I was still relatively new and kind of nervous. We were quickly going through an El Pres drill where each shooter would come to the line and shoot and the next shooter would quickly step up. I was shooting a revolver and everybody else was shooting an autoloader. Everyone was staying hot. After stepping off the line, each shooter would replace the magazine with a new one while leaving the gun in the holster. I was quickly reloading my revolver before stepping off the line but one time I holstered an empty gun. My next time up I started with an empty revolver. At the signal, I drew at the speed of light and clicked empty twice on the first target and once on the second before I realized I was empty.

From my memory I think that a large percentage of light strikes I've had have been a slightly high primer that has gone off with a second strike. If I've done a TRB, I try to pick up the round and try it again later. Many have gone off.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I feel that the biggest benefit to second-strike capability is not having to reset the gun during dry practice.

This is what I use it for.

I'm just a lowly Sharpshooter, but it seems to me that is a massively useful feature

[JonInWA]

There's been some excellent discussion here. I have one gun that probably has the heaviest triggerpull/firing pin energy out of my collection, my Ruger P89, which inherited and retained the performance mandated of the DoD XM9/XM10 trials, which required sufficient energy levels to detonate pretty much any conceivably available 9mm cartridge. It's the pistol that I used to successfully go through a box of Israeli 9mm military ammunition, presumably harder-primered for submachine gun use; gunwriter Duane Thomas had passed it on to me, as every pistol that he'd tested it with had badly stumbled. The P89, particularly in single-action mode successfully digested it. The interesting thing here is that it was the heavier-impacting single-action triggerpulls that were 100% successful; the DA pulls, because of the energy transferences involved were less successful, sometimes working, sometimes not.

The lesson for this discussion is that if I had a non-ignition with this gun, deliberately designed for higher firing pin impact energy, while instinctively I would probably would have initiated a double-action pull for the second strike, the more successful approach would have been to manually cock the hammer back for a single-action second strike. But unless a specific "manual cock second strike" training protocol was enacted and trained on to the point of where muscle memory was set, it was far more likely for me to either 1) enact a DA second-strike triggerpull, or 2) initiate a TRB process-which would set me up for the likely more effective SA triggerpull on the succeeding cartridge.

I think that while having a "second-strike" capability is nice, particularly on my DAO Beretta 92D, which genuinely provides a second strike capability on the same cartridge, it make more sense, and is a more universally applicable to utilize the TRB approach and move on to the next cartridge. Another thing to keep in mind is the technical capabilities of one's gun-in my case, while operationally excellent and never having experienced a need for a second strike with the 92D, I realize that the firing pin impact energy on the 92D is presumably a bit lower than on other 92 models, as the 92D utilizes the lighter so-called "D mainspring." The factory standard hammerspring weight is 20 lbs, the weight of the D spring is 16 lbs. My suspicion it that while the D spring is completely reliable with pretty much any and all standard commercial and military 9mm fodder available in the Western world, it might be a bit chancier with other foreign 9mm, be it commercial or military not produced IAW SAAMI specifications (or any ammunition subject to accumulations of corrosion or grime)-that's where the heavier striking 20 lb hammerspring would be of greater benefit, with a higher likelihood of detonating such chancier cartridges at first blush. Where you fall on this cartridge risk matrix must be discerned by you-and then choose and train accordingly.

Or, you can utilize a "split the difference" approach, incorporating the benefits that GJM and Ernest Langdon mention; in the event of a non-ignition event, INITIALLY try a second strike, and if ignition does not occur at that point, proceed to the TRB approach. That takes advantage of the time savings of the second strike for the first re-try, and then if you need to TRB you haven't expended an inordinate amount of time with the first effort. That may be the best overall approach, but it requires a higher level of mindset discernment and training.

This discussion is good in that it forces us to look at things that might occur, and prepare a protocol, and train accordingly. We also may benefit form determining if applicable which mechanical second strike pull is the best-a DA or SA one, and train accordingly for that as well.

Best, Jon