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Thread: AAR: Tom Givens 2-Day Combative Pistol, Everett WA June 2017

  1. #51
    Site Supporter Drang's Avatar
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    One thing I gained from the class was a practical lesson in how fumbling a grip can make a huge difference in accuracy. Better to get it right, but if it's wrong, don't try and take the shot anyway. Fixing it might cost a couple tenths of a second, but you can't miss fast enough to win...

    More dry practice draws are called for, as well as more practice on post-reload and post-malf transitions.

    The eyes of a 25 year old pro-baseball player would be great, too.
    Recovering Gun Store Commando
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  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Here is the deal. Darryl has articulated many fine reasons to carry an HK LEM pistol. I believe I have heard you articulate why those reasons are important to you. If your carefully review those reasons, none of them include shooting to your max potential on timed drills. You further handicapped yourself by selecting a compact/sub compact sized pistol with a short sight radius and a difficult to reload, short grip. Combine LEM trigger, hard to reload, and short sight radius, and you have stacked the cards against yourself for performance on a timer. Whether any of that matters on the street is a subject for another day. Of course, I suspect you know all of that because we have discussed it ad nauseam over the years.
    This is part of the wonderful world of your reality versus others. For most of my life as a cop, residing close to where I worked, I was not all that concerned about true concealment. Sure, I was concealed, but not to the point of pretty much invisible. Big giant black fanny packs, carried a steel 1911 in a Sparks 1AT and generally full size service pistols as a primary off duty gun. In retirement with a LEOSA ID, I also really wasn't too worked up over invisible and dressed around a VP9, P30, HK45 or 45C or a G-17 cut for 19 magazines.

    Fast forward to a totally different world for me where I cannot be detected being armed......period. All of a sudden, P30SK, and the P2000SK's become the total go to in both Thunderwear, and then deep 12:30 AIWB. For that carry....I want a hammer. Others may choose differently. Also, live by a not a cop kind of mentality and want my trigger to be a plenty of time to think trigger. Again, that is more important to me than a more shootable trigger. Currently, the Beretta PX4CC with an M&P340 snub is my everyday, all the time no exceptions guns. Both working and off. I give up sight radius, grip length, and some other stuff specifically to gain concealability and carryability as factors that outweighs shootability as the main factors of importance.

    Here is my reality, I cannot print at work. I wear light t-shirts most of the time when not at work. Lifestyle choice and the compact and sub compacts fir the bill and I am willing to accept the penalty versus a full size gun. Compare this to Tom Givens. While Tom finds the Safari Vest and Fedora to be dashing and debonair, it is not me. His manner of dress allows him to carry a Glock 35 and a back up with no problem.

    I found I shot my P2000Sk to about 80-85% to my VP9, yet it was much easer to carry and to really be a true Every waking minute type gun. For a solely personal protection gun, if a compact or sub compact is more likely to actually get carried ALL the time versus a bigger pistol, then "have a gun" is a good reason to stick with them. folks get totally wrapped around the axle about shooting a certain score or time on a drill. I would rather see spending that energy on live fire time with that subcompact that actually gets carried all day. Having a set of drills you shoot regulalry and know your normal performance on really helps to evaluate how much you are giving up going to a smaller pistol. Using those scores and times as an evaluation tool rather than the decision maker to me is a good bet.
    Last edited by Dagga Boy; 07-01-2017 at 02:49 PM.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  3. #53
    Site Supporter David S.'s Avatar
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    P2000 ftw.

    It really is the Goldilocks size HK if you just want one. Probably suit your retirement lifestyle really well. OTOH, I find it too big for deep concealment and my size allows me to carry a full size when I dress casual. I think the P30/P30SK combo will be ideal for me. If I didn't have to wear a uniform (tucked in shirt and slacks) at work, I'd rock the P2000 full time.
    Last edited by David S.; 07-01-2017 at 03:56 PM.

  4. #54
    Site Supporter Rich_Jenkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnionsAndDragons View Post

    If you do, hit me up when you get close to home, Rich. I have a VP9 that I've never warmed to and could do for a P30SK for Darryl reasons.
    Thanks O&D, but Mrs. J. has already laid claim to the P30SK lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    P2000 ftw.

    It really is the Goldilocks size HK if you just want one. Probably suit your retirement lifestyle really well. OTOH, I find it too big for deep concealment and my size allows me to carry a full size when I dress casual. I think the P30/P30SK combo will be ideal for me. If I didn't have to wear a uniform (tucked in shirt and slacks) at work, I'd rock the P2000 full time.
    Gah! You guys are killing me with the choices!

    PS Hope all is well at home with the additions.
    "Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves."
    --John Muir

  5. #55
    There is shooting against the timer, and there is shooting as fast as you can process information. "We" obsess with the timer. What matters is being accountable for every hit. Your shot placement is more important than your splits. Your presentation is more important than your splits.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  6. #56
    Let me also add for the concealed ca ray folks. Tom would agree the big key for all of this is....BE ARMED. If the P30SK keeps you accesably armed at all times versus something bigger that you may shoot a little better, I would take a hard look at armed all the time. One of the things I did in going to a sub compact for carry all the time, and with it deeply concealed is there is always a snub in my pocket that i often have actually gripped in my pocket. That J frame was critical in ending a robbery attempt against me because it was presented a such a rapid speed when the attempt started. The nice thing about things like the sub compacts is the ability to carry full size spare mags both on and off body. Again, his is all practical stuff more than drill score stuff. Plain and simple.....there are guns HST are easier to shoot well than others. That does not guarantee that they are the best gun to carry for problem solving in Street Force encounters.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  7. #57
    Site Supporter David S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    Gah! You guys are killing me with the choices!

    PS Hope all is well at home with the additions.
    All is well with the additions. 2 months old already and cute as can be. The both have fevers this week, but otherwise healthy.

    Swing back through DFW, the Mrs can fondle babies and we can go fondle midsized handguns.

  8. #58
    @Dagga Boy Always happy to see you posting, man. I really appreciate your contributions over the years.

    I definitely concur on what the hairy Viking is putting down here. It's so situation and person dependent, beyond the minimum of have a fucking gun that runs on you.

    I was EDC the P2000 for about 2 years but, since I broke the plateau in my body recomp, I carry a full size most of the time now because I'm not really giving up much concealment wise. The p2k or a future p30sk still have a place for me as I'm moving further away from the tactical hobo style of dress and things occasionally don't jive with the full sized grip.

    Bottom line for me is that your first shot to threat can be damned near the same between the two sizes, and that is going to be your most important time metric to actually worry about. I can shoot LEM follow ups accurately about as fast as I can evaluate, and I'm fine with that. Maybe one day I will get past that reaction time and consider a different gun, but I'll probably just shoot the same gun better by then too.

    PS: Rich, your wife is a smart cookie.


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  9. #59
    Site Supporter Drang's Avatar
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    Finally got my AAR up n the blog: Rangemaster Combative Pistol, Take Two

    Also, in case anyone was wondering what was up with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Drang View Post
    Minor glitches with the Detroit Holster "Hastings" holster, due to unfamiliarity with the Tek-Lok mount. Got it figured out when I got home and expect less struggles with the draw tomorrow.
    These pics illustrate:
    This is with the spacers in the original position, as I used it on Saturday:
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    Moving the spacers to the other end resulted in a tighter fit on the belt.
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    (It is not impossible that I got the two pics reversed, but the point is a simple adjustment made a huge difference.)

    I didn't bother messing with it to fine tune exactly where on the belt the holster rides.
    Last edited by Drang; 07-15-2017 at 09:43 PM.
    Recovering Gun Store Commando
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