Sig sued over defective pistols

[MattyD380]

That would mean no SIGs at all as SIG Germany has been barred from exporting guns by the German Govt.

All the more reason to make them under a different name. Or whenever that ban ends.

[paherne]

I'll second Tam's point about the 96. We were issued those starting in '95, after a horrendous gun battle with a rifle armed baddie. The department decided that it went on for 30 minutes and 1100 rounds because....we all couldn't share magazines, or something. Certainly not that there were no rifles available to the patrol guys to shoot it out with the body armor wearing nut! Anyway...Beretta gave us "such a deal" on those 96G's, and 1201 FP3 shotties, that we couldn't turn it down! Sure...one guy asked "Have these things been tested properly? Like shot to destruction?", but he was quickly shouted down by the guy who retired soon after to a second career....with Beretta. We began experiencing the keyholing issue shortly after transitioning to a high pressure (for .40) 165 gr. load. Then the range guys started finding split cases on the range floor......funny, that. We were having guys miss entirely at beyond 15 yards due to the keyholing and the condition of the barrels. Beretta replaced like 400 barrels with excess chamber space due to expansion....I pointed out to our rangemaster what I thought was the obvious fact that these guns were gonna start popping. Two weeks later a couple of them did. I went to a couple of Union guys who were also firearms instructors for our Counter-Sniper element, and we all went to the rangemaster and told him we were filing an OSHA complaint over this years old issue. Four days later the Deputy Chief signed off on ordering Sigs. The transition took over 8 years....for just under 1900 officers.

Charlie did a good job for Beretta teaching those armorer schools, though! If SFPD had just bought 92G Centurions, you'd still be carrying them. The 1201 shotguns were a disaster. My brother told me no one would check one out because they didn't work.

[AMC]

Charlie did a good job for Beretta teaching those armorer schools, though! If SFPD had just bought 92G Centurions, you'd still be carrying them. The 1201 shotguns were a disaster. My brother told me no one would check one out because they didn't work.

I carried a personally owned 92G from late '92 to '97 or '98, when they finally gave me a 96G. You're probably right. Wouldn't have had near the issues. I had 22,000 rounds through the 92G when I put it in the safe (still there!), and no issues or parts breakage. Took it to Gunsite twice.....had trouble making that thing malfunction.

The 1201's.....yeah. Biggest issue though was that the cops couldn't run them well. "Wait.....there's more than one 'button'? No way, man!"

[TGS]

That would mean no SIGs at all as SIG Germany has been barred from exporting guns by the German Govt.

J.P. Sauer is a different company than SIG Sauer, so would it matter? I believe Sauer is owned by the same group that owns Mauser, Blaser, and possibly Merkel. (?) I don't know if any of them are the right sort of company to produce a quality pistol....afaik, they're investment firms making exclusively priced, historical name brand hunting arms that are shells of their former glory simply for the aristocratic class of Europe as status symbols. I'd love to be proven wrong, as that Mauser M03 Stutzen is probably the most beautiful rifle I've ever seen....

Back to SIG, their current position is sort of ironic, given SIG originally being a Swiss industrial congomlerate (like Daewoo, makes everything from guns to appliances and cars) that merged with Sauer of Germany to export weapons because Switzerland had a complete ban on the export of any weapons, period.

[ReverendMeat]

So if SIG went to MIM'd long extractors to save money and keep the price point down, how come they're still using (presumably machined) short extractors on their "budget" SP2022..?

And speaking of the 2022 I don't recall hearing of any systemic reliability issues out of that one, oddly enough.

[HCM]

Back to SIG, their current position is sort of ironic, given SIG originally being a Swiss industrial congomlerate (like Daewoo, makes everything from guns to appliances and cars) that merged with Sauer of Germany to export weapons because Switzerland had a complete ban on the export of any weapons, period.

Not sure the full back story but apparently some German made SIG pistols were exported to the U.S., sold to the U.S. Government who then sold them to Colombian Police via our foreign military sales program. Apparently the Colombians are on Germany's naughty list because it is "an armed conflict zone" so even though it was the USG who provided the weapons to the Colombians the leftist Government in Germany is taking it out on SIG.

My understanding is SIG is banned from exporting firearms outside the EU for at least 5 years. This is why SIG is attempting to set up production for the X5, P210 etc in NH. Not only for the US market but other export markets as well.

I would not be surprised if this was part of HK's motivation for finally building a "back up" production facility in the US.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28291070

Germany has imposed an export ban on arms maker SIG Sauer after guns manufactured by the German company were found to have been sold to the Colombian police, German media report.

Under German law, arms exports require a special licence which is not normally granted for countries where there is armed conflict, such as Colombia.

Colombia says it bought almost 65,000 SIG Sauer pistols for its police force from the US Department of Defense.

SIG Sauer denies any wrongdoing.

[Tamara]

J.P. Sauer is a different company than SIG Sauer, so would it matter? I believe Sauer is owned by the same group that owns Mauser, Blaser, and possibly Merkel. (?)

That's SIG Sauer, née SIGARMS. The Ortmeier bros own the whole shootin' match, as it were.

[MattyD380]

So if SIG went to MIM'd long extractors to save money and keep the price point down, how come they're still using (presumably machined) short extractors on their "budget" SP2022..?

And speaking of the 2022 I don't recall hearing of any systemic reliability issues out of that one, oddly enough.

Great question.

[MattyD380]

J.P. Sauer is a different company than SIG Sauer, so would it matter? I believe Sauer is owned by the same group that owns Mauser, Blaser, and possibly Merkel. (?) I don't know if any of them are the right sort of company to produce a quality pistol....afaik, they're investment firms making exclusively priced, historical name brand hunting arms that are shells of their former glory simply for the aristocratic class of Europe as status symbols. I'd love to be proven wrong, as that Mauser M03 Stutzen is probably the most beautiful rifle I've ever seen....

Back to SIG, their current position is sort of ironic, given SIG originally being a Swiss industrial congomlerate (like Daewoo, makes everything from guns to appliances and cars) that merged with Sauer of Germany to export weapons because Switzerland had a complete ban on the export of any weapons, period.

Yeah, you're probably right on that. I know J.P. Sauer only makes rifles under the Sauer name. Still, there's this...





The Sauer logo shows up on pretty much all Sig Sauer guns (fairly recent ones, anyway) where the frame was made in Germany. Some even say "Sauer" on the frame.

So J.P. Sauer must still have a hand in pistol making. Or did, until very recently.

What's weird, is that I always thought German Sig Sauer guns (and presumably these Sauer-marked frames) were made in Eckernförde. Yet, if you go to J.P. Sauer's website, their headquarters is somewhere totally different.

[jwperry]

The last SIG factory standard trigger I bought (to replace the thin trigger that came on a P239) was labeled "made in India." I picked up a spare machines locking block for a P226, that was made in Israel.

I had to go and check my parts bin, but I have a E2 grip kit also made in Israel, a 2nd mainspring seat made in Israel. (in addition to the reduced reach trigger made in India)
Everything else is stamped made in the USA.

I was pretty excited for them...until I held one. Reports of canted sights were made here on PF and in other places upon release. Finish issues were also reported. "Higher end" didn't extend to better QC.

I wonder if the same marketing could be applied, though. Isn't the Mk25 "that gun" already? Better internals and whatnot? (Seriously, I'm asking)

I currently own 2, but had 3 (traded 1 to a friend) 2014/2015 made Mk25 guns. They're my primary shooters & EDC guns.
They weren't assembled the same; 2 of them had the E2 mainspring setup and 1 had the older large plastic mainspring setup. I also suspect, based on trigger pull weight, that one had an out of spec or P229 mainspring in it because the trigger pull was significantly heavier. The phosphate barrel wears faster (IMO) than the standard barrel.
I've polished the internals of all my Sigs, paid for the Sig Action Enhancement Package and copied their work on all my other Sigs, so the Phosphate coating is irrelevant to me really. But, I feel that these components polished better than my P228 or older P226Rs that I have. I don't really feel there is any difference in their build quality compared to my other Sigs. Just a 1913 rail, short extractor, a spot on the side where a sticker fell off after getting oily and a little anchor that adds +5 to my charisma while at the range.

I'd still buy them again when compared to other current models, mostly because I prefer the mechanical design of the short extractor. I'd probably pick a short extractor, non-Mk25 over these if they were cheaper for what its' worth.