Sorry...maybe should have used a better term. What I was trying to say was that my understanding of the lowest point in quality started somewhere between 05 and 08, and quality improved starting sometime around 2012, and to ask if that jives with others' understanding as wellOriginally Posted by Tamara
Plus, most the polymer parts used by Beretta are also polymer in a lot of other highly regarded pistols like the Glock 17 and HK pistols. Nobody seems to be worried about those, same function, polymer parts in the Glock or HK...
More back on track, I have heard first hand of issues, right out of the box, with new SIG P320 pistols being issued to a local LEA. Brand new P320s having to be fixed before they run. Some QC!
Last edited by Exiledviking; 05-21-2017 at 04:10 PM.
Got some more info for you.
The department in question has had the P229 in 40S&W since 2002. All of the failing guns have been 2013 and later production. Between the 23 cracked frames and various other parts breakages, they have 36 inoperable & irreparable weapons (that's just under 1/4 of the department). There's no correlation to round count.....one of the guns developed a cracked frame in less than 50 rounds.
No idea on the specifics for the deadlined guns suffering irreparable malfunctions without cracked frames.
Trying to get more info on their other platforms.....they have a handful of P220s that their tactical guys have the option to use, and P239 for the detectives.
ETA: The P239 is suffering the same problems and counted in the deadlined number, though there's fewer of them. Two of the P220s are deadlined, but they're viewing it as a simple matter of them being shot-out or routine parts breakages due to the round count, and still view the P220 as giving solid reliable service.
Last edited by TGS; 05-21-2017 at 04:15 PM.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
Resuscitation from near-death states is rarely painless. I've had to eat a ton of Ron Cohen crow, and I'm not happy about, but I have to grudgingly give all those "rainbow-TiNi Gadsden Flag" and "Mosquito w/included Chinese laser and red dot sight" editions credit, because without them, there'd be no 320 or Legion guns or any of the other cool things Sig's been able to do.
My point was that Beretta cheapens things up, too. Thus far they appear to have done it to less detriment, but they're not immune to cost-cutting either.
Gun companies are always looking for ways to make money, because that's what they're in business to do.
Look, I love Smith & Wesson with the sort of irrational attachment most people have for sports teams. I've currently got over half a hundred old Smiths, and no telling how many I've owned total over the years. People go on about the change in the late '50s, when they went from the 5-screw guns to the 3-screw guns, or the change in the early '80s, when the pinned barrels and recessed chambers on magnums went away, or the turn of the Millennium, when MIM and locks showed up, but...
The very first revolver S&W made, the .22 rimfire tip-up "Number One, 1st Issue", back in 1857, was replaced three years later with the "Number One, 2nd Issue". The main differences were that the round cross-section frame was replaced by a slab-sided one and the small, circular sideplate was replaced with a large, irregularly-shaped one. Neither of these changes made the frame stronger or the gun better (nor did they really negatively affect the gun) but they did make the gun cheaper and faster to make.
Are the frames cracking in the same location each time? That's pretty concerning. I thought the 229 was supposed to be one of the more durable 40S&W platforms.
Considering that there hasn't need many changes to the 229 frame, I would guess a bad batch of forgings.
"The rocket worked perfectly, except for landing on the wrong planet." - Wernher Von Braun
http://www.teampegleg.com
No idea.
It is when made correctly. The 40S&W P229 and P239 have been around for decades without issue, and used since 2002 by this specific PD. Problems only arose with their guns purchased in 2013 or later. Something obviously happened....I would consider there to be defects in their material or manufacturing process that is causing it, not a reflection on the design itself.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
I wonder if the M11-A1 has more stringent QC checks, because it's essentially a 229 but its marketed as being milspec-style (QR inventory tag and all!). It's still a long extractor gun, but they are marketed as being as good as/ better than the old 228/M11.
With the polymer stuff on Berettas, I believe that actually originated on the Gov's end since they wanted to lower the price on M9s, and that was the best option Beretta could offer after testing and re-validating the pistols with new components. Then those less expensive parts naturally trickled out into the general population/ build template for the Mil type (to keep the commercial M9s 'milspec') and then base model 90 series guns. I don't think all Berettas use the poly bits though, ex. the Wilson Guns and most of the M9A3 (except guide rod).
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