Sig sued over defective pistols

[jwperry]

For enough money gun companies will practically sell you their daughter's virtue. But if you want to pay polymer of money for a metal pistol corners are going to have to be cut.

My personal hope that with the 320 we can see the Classic P series become like the S&W Revolvers, a higher end product that you pay good money for. Or pull an Hk and just discontinue the entire series once sales drop off.

Isn't that kind of what the Legion series is moving towards? All the upgrades all rolled into 1 package sold at a premium? (for the record, if the Legion's didn't have beaver tails I'd think they were the perfect/best value Sig due to their feature set & price point)

That model kept them alive, as how many plain jane SIGs do you need? But you slap a fancy finish you have collector idiots willing to fork over 30-40% more to buy a second or a third SIG. During the same period they still sold plain jane guns for a reasonable price (in fact the price increases were minimal on those models).

Remember those of us that buy back ups and back ups to backups are a minority in the gun market.

I use the example of a Mk25 because all the overhead costs that go into initial release should be depreciated off a model with short extractor & 1913 rail. But as an owner of 2 of these, I found their NIB price similar to a Nitron version (when I was shopping a couple years ago) and wanted to keep the short extractor to keep common spare parts with my SCT that I already owned.

[Tamara]

Hopefully Beretta doesn't let the 92 slip...

I have bad news...

[PPGMD]

I think the point is that certain consumers are willing to pay more for a classic P series... and they do pay more. A lot more. Yet, they're not getting a gun that's truly made to military/police standards anymore (or at least it doesn't seem like it). I realize the margins are different on metal-framed, hammer-fired guns. But don't upcharge to make your margins, and cut corners on the parts/QC. Which is what it seems like Sig is doing.

Except it had nothing to do with margins, it had to do with keeping the company alive. During the 2003-2009 the prices of most raw materials literally doubled. Yet due to pressure from Glock, SIG couldn't raise their prices on plain jane models. That is why even during the height of this period plain jane models only went up 30-40%. If it weren't for the cost cutting SIG would literally be bankrupt, as they could barely make payroll at one point.

If SIG prices truly went up with the increased costs and didn't change a thing in production a plain jane model would've probably be in the $1,200-1,500 range. What we consider to be in a production 1911 territory.

Glock pricing strategy of marking up their guns and only minimally increasing prices as the costs increase put tremendous pressure on the metal frame companies that didn't have nearly the same margins.

[PPGMD]

Isn't that kind of what the Legion series is moving towards? All the upgrades all rolled into 1 package sold at a premium? (for the record, if the Legion's didn't have beaver tails I'd think they were the perfect/best value Sig due to their feature set & price point)

The Legion was SIG's attempt to make a premium pistol that would appeal to people like us, in addition to the masses. All the features that many of us already do to our pistols at a lower price point. It worked.

Personally I like the beaver tail, I find it shooters more comfortably as the pistol locks into my hand better. If I were still carrying and shooting SIGs it would probably be high up on my list of guns to purchase.

I use the example of a Mk25 because all the overhead costs that go into initial release should be depreciated off a model with short extractor & 1913 rail. But as an owner of 2 of these, I found their NIB price similar to a Nitron version (when I was shopping a couple years ago) and wanted to keep the short extractor to keep common spare parts with my SCT that I already owned.

Gun companies sell to price points, not to a profit margin. If they all sold to a standard profit margin polymer framed guns would probably be around $300 retail today.

[MattyD380]

Except it had nothing to do with margins, it had to do with keeping the company alive. During the 2003-2009 the prices of most raw materials literally doubled. Yet due to pressure from Glock, SIG couldn't raise their prices on plain jane models. That is why even during the height of this period plain jane models only went up 30-40%. If it weren't for the cost cutting SIG would literally be bankrupt, as they could barely make payroll at one point.

If SIG prices truly went up with the increased costs and didn't change a thing in production a plain jane model would've probably be in the $1,200-1,500 range. What we consider to be in a production 1911 territory.

Glock pricing strategy of marking up their guns and only minimally increasing prices as the costs increase put tremendous pressure on the metal frame companies that didn't have nearly the same margins.

That's interesting. And, from a business standpoint, I'm sure you're right--today's Sig Sauer is only Sig Sauer that's possible given the market challenges they've faced/are facing. But still... that doesn't change the fact that P2XX Sigs aren't the guns they once were back in the 80s & 90s. And that's because, in today's market, there's just not enough LE/military demand for metal guns to justify the costs associated with keeping up the QC. <=At least that's the theory I'm working against, here...

[MattyD380]

I have bad news...

You think 92s have gone downhill in quality? I mean, I think mine are very nicely made and perfectly reliable... but YMMV.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Interesting insight. Thanks.

A while back, I saw a thread claiming that the guns LE customers get are made to a different standard (small parts, etc.) than the guns consumers get. Based on your experience, maybe it's all coming from the same pool now.

Interesting read, either way: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....-thread/page56

I believe this is correct--I have a 2014 legacy blue label P229, and it has a machined locking block and I believe a machined hammer, while current commercial guns are using MIM for these parts. Mine does use MIM for its other small parts (trigger, takedown lever, and I believe decocker/slide stop lever, and I think the extractor was, but I swapped it for a Gray Guns machined extractor).

For what it's worth, this gun (my dedicated training SIG) just flat runs. Its finish is also holding up very well compared to the finishes on my older guns, and it has the second best trigger of any of my SIGs (the first being a 1994 P229 .357 with a DA pull out of the box that feels like a DAK trigger and may have been blessed by Baby Jesus himself...)

I wish that SIG would create a higher priced line that uses higher quality, machined small parts, better QC, test firing at the factory, etc.--the average gun owner wouldn't pay for or notice the difference, but I'm guessing there are enough people out there that would that they could make it profitable.

[PPGMD]

AFAIK there was only one attempt to MIM legacy extractor, and that was limited to the 220 series IIRC.

[PPGMD]

That's interesting. And, from a business standpoint, I'm sure you're right--today's Sig Sauer is only Sig Sauer that's possible given the market challenges they've faced/are facing. But still... that doesn't change the fact that P2XX Sigs aren't the guns they once were back in the 80s & 90s. And that's because, in today's market, there's just not enough LE/military demand for metal guns to justify the costs associated with keeping up the QC. <=At least that's the theory I'm working against, here...

I don't think that demand is the right word. For LE agencies it comes down to price even if their officers would prefer a metal gun like a SIG the admins don't want to spend the extra money. And for some reason agencies didn't want the SIGPro either.

[MattyD380]

I don't think that demand is the right word. For LE agencies it comes down to price even if their officers would prefer a metal gun like a SIG the admins don't want to spend the extra money. And for some reason agencies didn't want the SIGPro either.

Makes sense, in the context of LE agency buyers. I guess the difference between then and now is that, pre-Glock, there really wasn't a cost effective like that available. Now that there is, I guess we won't see them electing to pay more money for metal DA/SA guns.