Self-Defense for average people

[RJ]

Maybe I'm missing something and it's my own cognitive dissonance showing, but this thread sounds a lot like, "thanks for all of the advice and now I'm going to shape that advice into what I wanted to do in the first place."

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B - Eh, I dunno.

OP is offering a premise of average "for him", and asking for thought?

Responders are offering either average "for the general public" (low), average "for them" (which varies from someone like Paul Sharp, Cecil Burch, Greg Ellifritz, etc. on down to aging geezers like me), or average "for what they recommend" (which is where the value of the discussion is, for me.)

Obviously, YMMV. I think anyone actively participating in p-f.com is probably on the way upward from 'average', myself.


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[cclaxton]

I think you're right. It seems like OP came into this with an answer in his mind already. Whatever, I hope it works out.
I guess I just don't understand the whole premise here. Is it how can someone learn to kick ass and take names with little to no effort put in? That's not how it works.
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I came to this question with my own opinion based on my training and experience. I posted the question to see what I can learn from others here. In some cases my view was validated and in other ways improved or wrong.
What I have learned in this exchange is:
1) There are some people with great experience who can provide a measurable level of skill that an average citizen needs to defend themselves.
2) That level of skill was higher than I expected.
3) That we all are struggling with how to motivate people to go beyond carrying pepper spray and some basic avoidance.
4) Most here think Facing Violence is a good reference for people to use (which is the one I like).
5) There is a significant amount of skepticism about average citizens learning self-defense.
6) That while avoidance and situational awareness and pepper spray are good to start, people really need much more than that.

I would appreciate the benefit of the doubt, as I give that benefit to everyone here.
THis forum is for teachers and students. I would like to see us treat each other in a collegial manner, as students and teachers do.
Thanks,
Cody

[Mitch]

Never mind, I'm out.

[scw2]

I am trying to figure out how to motivate my family members to go beyond that first level, to learning some BJJ/Krav/Self-Defense moves, and take shooting a pistol more seriously. A scary event definitely helps, but not everybody has that experience.

I don't think you can, and I think Mr White hit it on the head with his prior post. I've seen many people have a negative event and still not change their behavior. Others make a modification but go back to how they were previously. Yet others will make a permanent change in behavior. Of those, the changes they make may not actually be well grounded in reality (e.g. my buddy pocket carries without one in the chamber...). At best you can help along those in group 2 and 3 when and if they're ready to take some concrete steps to improve their situation. At some point you may just have to accept that no matter what you try, some people just won't be receptive.

[orionz06]

Maybe I'm missing something and it's my own cognitive dissonance showing, but this thread sounds a lot like, "thanks for all of the advice and now I'm going to shape that advice into what I wanted to do in the first place."

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Yup, it has happened before on this topic as well.

[BaiHu]

A similar question was posted on Facebook. EXPERT RESPONSE: This was my response there, this is sort of my standard response to this question; I think there are some standardized measurements. Solid bluebelt in jits. B class in USPSA. EMT-B rating in medical stuff. Those types of measurements are easily quantified. Driving is a little more difficult as is the verbal agility component although Toastmasters scoring system was a decent data tracking point.

So here is where I am at this time: "What level of training does an average person need to provide BASIC self-defense? "
Paul Sharpe made a great comment: "Solid bluebelt in jits. B class in USPSA. EMT-B rating in medical stuff. "
That sounds right to me when you consider "need" for Basic Self Defense. Now even though he is from Chicago, which has a more challenging criminal culture, that tells me that situational awareness and pepper spray is not going to cut it when a criminal attacks and you need to defend yourself. YOUR REBUTTAL: I do think B-class USPSA shooter is perhaps a bit too high a bar to set, but the point is great pistol skills are necessary. That being said, I am still convinced that avoidance, situational awareness, and having some type of defense, such as pepper spray and a good flashlight will get me out of a lot of situations. And, I think that is what most people can achieve as a first step. 1 OF A NUMBER OF EXAMPLES WHERE YOU CHANGE WHAT "AVERAGE" IS: Beyond that they need to be motivated to do more. Getting into BJJ or Krav or MMA may be the next logical step. Then, doing more pistol practice, shooting some IDPA and USPSA and building on the basics. I am still looking for good role-playing trainings that help learn situational awareness and avoidance that I can recommend.
Thanks to everyone for contributing.
Cody

That's why I've said what I've said. Good luck on your journey as it'll never end.

[GAP]

I'll make my earlier response more.. vanilla.

2 days per week strength training/20 min cardio
2 days per week Jiu-Jitsu training
1-2 days per month shooting

If an "average" person won't even do that then it's not worth addressing.

[Cecil Burch]

And, I am still looking for someone who trains situational awareness and role-playing to get the experience and practice.
Cody

ECQC is the flagship for that. From the first hour on Friday night through the last minute on Sunday, you are working exactly that. Also, sometimes Craig teaches the specific and shortened MUC module at Tac Conferences. He almost always does it at the New England Shooters Summit in NH.

Greg Ellifritz's Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting course does similar things.

John Murphy's FPF Training does a terrific class called Street Encounter Skills that addresses this. He also will do a version of this material at Conferences.

My own live fire class Close Contact Handgun is a day and half working SA and role-playing, as well as really getting across how important maintaining distance is, as well as how tough it is to actually do that.

I believe Insights Training in WA also does a similar course. There are at least a couple of threads on P-F that talks about the class. Actually, there are a ton of threads and AARs on P-F that talk about all these courses in depth and have done so since the beginning of the forum.

[Zincwarrior]

I think most people are willing to go 4 Saturdays or Sundays or take one week of training in a year. Some are willing to do twice that. But getting past that first weekend is the challenge.
Cody

I highly doubt that actually. Odds of a fire incident at your home are far higher, but you don't see people taking monthly monthly firedrills at the house.

[Zincwarrior]

Mr. Harris has a good point. At the local matches - there is core of folks. Each match starts with a new shooters meeting. If we actually retained about 10% of them, we would have matches with 150 people in no time. But it's mostly the same 40 to 60 folks. It's like my health prevention class that my doc signed me up for (cardiac, sigh). Started with 12 folks - down to about 6. I knew one wasn't going to make it as when talking about diet - said person bellowed: I won't give up my MAYO!!

Now, talking about the average competency for the committed - didn't we do someone's idea of a bachelor's degree in self-defense once. Was it Tom Givens? I don't recall - duh?

I agree completely. I will not give up my mayo either.