Practical accuracy expectations from a 16" gas gun

[Unobtanium]

These things plus so much more. Bolt guns are actually easier to shoot better, even if the bolt and gas guns being compared are similarly accurate. Not to mention that say a $700 Remington/Savage/Howa/Tikka/etc will shoot circles around a similarly priced gas gun.

Try this sometime: ask a friend shooting, who owns a decent bolt action hunting rifle that he has a good load for. Try to make sure it's a cheaper rifle. See what happens for groups.

I don't have any friends with bolt guns that they shoot, but every time I go to the range, I look around and see a few. Very few of them shoot 10 shot groups, and only the guys with rests and 10+ power scopes and 1" diameter barrels are shooting groups similar to mine on a consistent basis. One guy with some carbon-fiber wrapped mess talked crap about the Black Hills "Seconds" ("Why aren't you using "Firsts"? *smirk*") boxes I had stored my Browntip ammo in until his fancy varmint rig with what he claimed were handloads shot groups about the same size as mine at 100 with mil-spec 70gr browntip (basically a 70gr TSX pushing 2900ish out of my 16" gun, shoots around 1.3-1.5" for me at 100). "See there, we were both using seconds." lol!


Sorry for the home-made targets:



Fancy rigs don't help much. This is as accurate as the ammunition is mechanically capable of. Here is how a fancy rig shoots the same 75gr Gold Dot. All you need is a good 4 power and a quality chrome-lined barrel and practice.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...Grain-Gold-Dot

I have yet to see very many cheap hunting rifles with a 4 power scope that manage to hover around 1MOA 10shot groups at 100 yards, but I'll ask around.

[rjohnson4405]

I don't have any friends with bolt guns that they shoot, but every time I go to the range, I look around and see a few. Very few of them shoot 10 shot groups, and only the guys with rests and 10+ power scopes and 1" diameter barrels are shooting groups similar to mine on a consistent basis...

I have yet to see very many cheap hunting rifles with a 4 power scope that manage to hover around 1MOA 10shot groups at 100 yards, but I'll ask around.

You're being led astray by the law of tards. Unfortunately the world and shooting ranges are full of them. But, do believe most standard bolt actions with decent ammo will shoot better than the groups you've posted.

I'm willing to bet you're pretty much at the peak of what your gun is capable of. That is good shooting out of a chrome lined AR and very consistent, nice!

My experience with bolt guns is with the more bargain ones like this Savage: http://savagearms.com/firearms/model/25LV (retails for less than $700) which shot less than a MOA at 100 without much effort.

[LittleLebowski]

Ha! I'm sure you can find enough scratch for a G2S. If you keep your eye out around Memorial Day or July 4th you'll find some good deals on them in the low $100's

I'll play with positions.

I also put a cheap brake on that was given to me by a friend. This happened just before mounting the new 10x scope, so I wonder if that could be throwing off groups.

I've got a LaRue MBT, but I can't justify any more expenditures on expensive triggers.

I shot this group on a timer at 100 yards in a Defoor carbine class, using Soviet surplus steel cased 5.45 in a S&W 5.45 AR, a 4 MOA Aimpoint, and a mil spec trigger with a heavy trigger spring. I'm sure it could have been cleaned up some by a better scope and a better trigger, but I'd rather put the money towards shooting more.

[LittleLebowski]

I don't have any friends with bolt guns that they shoot, but every time I go to the range, I look around and see a few. Very few of them shoot 10 shot groups, and only the guys with rests and 10+ power scopes and 1" diameter barrels are shooting groups similar to mine on a consistent basis. One guy with some carbon-fiber wrapped mess talked crap about the Black Hills "Seconds" ("Why aren't you using "Firsts"? *smirk*") boxes I had stored my Browntip ammo in until his fancy varmint rig with what he claimed were handloads shot groups about the same size as mine at 100 with mil-spec 70gr browntip (basically a 70gr TSX pushing 2900ish out of my 16" gun, shoots around 1.3-1.5" for me at 100). "See there, we were both using seconds." lol!


Sorry for the home-made targets:



Fancy rigs don't help much. This is as accurate as the ammunition is mechanically capable of. Here is how a fancy rig shoots the same 75gr Gold Dot. All you need is a good 4 power and a quality chrome-lined barrel and practice.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...Grain-Gold-Dot

I have yet to see very many cheap hunting rifles with a 4 power scope that manage to hover around 1MOA 10shot groups at 100 yards, but I'll ask around.

Sorry, it appears that we disagree. That's fine. When I wrote that about hunting rifles, I was referring to your gas gun with the aforementioned 2.5-10x Nightforce scope as documented in your first post. Your rifle sounds like it's shooting fine. I was indeed speaking from personal experience, with regards to say a cheap 700 or Model 70 with a 9-10x power scope, of which I have both, and have seen fantastic results from. It's too bad we can hit the range together and shoot, because shooting is fun.

[Unobtanium]

You're being led astray by the law of tards. Unfortunately the world and shooting ranges are full of them. But, do believe most standard bolt actions with decent ammo will shoot better than the groups you've posted.

I'm willing to bet you're pretty much at the peak of what your gun is capable of. That is good shooting out of a chrome lined AR and very consistent, nice!

My experience with bolt guns is with the more bargain ones like this Savage: http://savagearms.com/firearms/model/25LV (retails for less than $700) which shot less than a MOA at 100 without much effort.

My Ruger VT would do pretty decent. I might ought break it out of retirement. My father had a Tikka Master SPorter with a 32x scope on it, and I never manged to shoot under 1" with it. Again, ammo related. I always just shot M193. Would manage 1/2MOA out to 400 meters, but then 3 shots would go CRAZY wild, like, feet off.

[Unobtanium]

Sorry, it appears that we disagree. That's fine. When I wrote that about hunting rifles, I was referring to your gas gun with the aforementioned 2.5-10x Nightforce scope as documented in your first post. Your rifle sounds like it's shooting fine. I was indeed speaking from personal experience, with regards to say a cheap 700 or Model 70 with a 9-10x power scope, of which I have both, and have seen fantastic results from. It's too bad we can hit the range together and shoot, because shooting is fun.

Agreed! I wished I had a 2.5-10 though, I just have the 1-4.

[LittleLebowski]

Agreed! I wished I had a 2.5-10 though, I just have the 1-4.

I misread, my apologies.

[Unobtanium]

I misread, my apologies.

Nono, my gun collection apologizes

Seriously though, I just don't feel like shooting an AR is any more difficult than a gas gun. However, I will certainly test the theory. My Dad is going to visit me in the next month or two, and I'll request that he bring a heavy bolt gun with him. I personally own none, as of current.

[JohnO]

Kyle Defoor in collaboration with BCM has a new URG coming out in June. Kyle told me it would offer 1 MOA or better with Black Hills 77 gn. out to 600. This is going to be a 16" stainless barrel. The "special sauce" as Kyle put it is in the 1 in 7.7" twist rate.

Kyle recently put pics and minimal info on his social media accounts.

[Unobtanium]

Kyle Defoor in collaboration with BCM has a new URG coming out in June. Kyle told me it would offer 1 MOA or better with Black Hills 77 gn. out to 600. This is going to be a 16" stainless barrel. The "special sauce" as Kyle put it is in the 1 in 7.7" twist rate.

Kyle recently put pics and minimal info on his social media accounts.

Accuracy guarantees have to be frustrating for a manufacturer. Did you see the "reject barrel" project Stickman did?