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Thread: Practical accuracy expectations from a 16" gas gun

  1. #11
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    I would try black hills ammo. I'd happily take 2 moa at 600 from a gas gun and just shoot it until the barrel goes unless I was competing or shooting prairie dogs.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    +1 on being happy with 2 MOA with nearly any factory loaded ammunition. On a great day, with a great position, no wind, and the lighting right, I have shot close to 1 MOA with my 1/8 twist S&W M&P 15 and factory match ammo, but those are VERY rare days for me now. IIRC, the MILSPEC on an M4 is 4MOA, and the ammo is about the same... Doesn't mean there aren't folks who can consistently shoot 1 MOA with them, but I doubt there's a whole bunch who can.

    Just because you're shooting sub MOA with a .308 bolt gun, don't get wrapped around the axel on shooting 2 MOA with a 16" AR. Different weapon with a different intended use. If you took your bolt gun into a "run & gun" course, I don't think you'd complain that it was slower than the AR.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    That's gas guns for you. They are much harder to shoot well with and ultimately, less accurate than bolt guns.
    Why? This has not been my experience with them, limited though it may be. On my AR, 10 shots into 1-1.2" at 100 yards isn't hard to do, even using a 1-6 optic. That's a government profile, chrome lined, 5500+ round barrel that I've run hard. Now can I shoot better with a bolt gun and a 20x scope? Sure. I can do around 0.7 or so. But put that 20x and heavy l stainless barrel on my AR, and I'd do it there, too, I bet. So I guess mechanically, not having the heavy barrel and all holds me back to around 1moa, but there is nothing harder about shooting it than a bolt gun.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    psalms144.1 gives some good advice.

    Likewise, try some BH 77 gr SMK.

    Consistent 1-1.5 MOA with a non-match AR15 is quite reasonable; I am happy under 2 MOA with an AR15.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
    Why? This has not been my experience with them, limited though it may be. On my AR, 10 shots into 1-1.2" at 100 yards isn't hard to do, even using a 1-6 optic. That's a government profile, chrome lined, 5500+ round barrel that I've run hard. Now can I shoot better with a bolt gun and a 20x scope? Sure. I can do around 0.7 or so. But put that 20x and heavy l stainless barrel on my AR, and I'd do it there, too, I bet. So I guess mechanically, not having the heavy barrel and all holds me back to around 1moa, but there is nothing harder about shooting it than a bolt gun.
    I'm not really qualified to answer but lock time, more moving parts, and wobble in the stock and upper/lower matchup have been referenced in the past by people that know. Just looking on snipershide would probably get you most of the answers. Just noting that I've heard this from many qualified sources. Also, I don't think you'd see too much of a difference at 100 where the differences are less noticeable.
    Last edited by rjohnson4405; 05-15-2017 at 03:42 PM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Barrel manufacturer and profile? Trigger? Bipod? Bags? Lot of variables to be answered.
    Sionics, not sure who the actual MFR is. Medium contour(constant taper, 1 oz heavier than a std M4 profile), 1/8 twist, chrome lined 5.56 chamber. Geisselle G2S trigger.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rjohnson4405 View Post
    I'm not really qualified to answer but lock time, more moving parts, and wobble in the stock and upper/lower matchup have been referenced in the past by people that know. Just looking on snipershide would probably get you most of the answers. Just noting that I've heard this from many qualified sources. Also, I don't think you'd see too much of a difference at 100 where the differences are less noticeable.
    These things plus so much more. Bolt guns are actually easier to shoot better, even if the bolt and gas guns being compared are similarly accurate. Not to mention that say a $700 Remington/Savage/Howa/Tikka/etc will shoot circles around a similarly priced gas gun.

    Try this sometime: ask a friend shooting, who owns a decent bolt action hunting rifle that he has a good load for. Try to make sure it's a cheaper rifle. See what happens for groups.
    Last edited by LittleLebowski; 05-15-2017 at 06:58 PM.
    #RESIST

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by littlejerry View Post
    Sionics, not sure who the actual MFR is. Medium contour(constant taper, 1 oz heavier than a std M4 profile), 1/8 twist, chrome lined 5.56 chamber. Geisselle G2S trigger.
    Sounds like you're good, no pencil barrel and an excellent trigger (that I can't afford ). I believe that your next step is handloading if possible, or trying a wider variety of loads. Be sure to get a good rest, shoot from the prone if possible. Hard on soft, soft on hard with regards to bags or whatever you're resting on.
    #RESIST

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Sounds like you're good, no pencil barrel and an excellent trigger (that I can't afford ). I believe that your next step is handloading if possible, or trying a wider variety of loads. Be sure to get a good rest, shoot from the prone if possible. Hard on soft, soft on hard with regards to bags or whatever you're resting on.
    Ha! I'm sure you can find enough scratch for a G2S. If you keep your eye out around Memorial Day or July 4th you'll find some good deals on them in the low $100's

    I'll play with positions.

    I also put a cheap brake on that was given to me by a friend. This happened just before mounting the new 10x scope, so I wonder if that could be throwing off groups.

  10. #20
    Member SecondsCount's Avatar
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    Your expectations should be based on your equipment. I have owned several sub MOA AR-15's but don't expect much from my chrome lined, standard handguard, BCM upper.

    There is something called the MOA challenge on AR-15.com. It was created the posters that over the years that were bragging that their AR-15, or other rifle, that could shoot MOA "all day long." The challenge was to have the shooter shoot off a bipod with a rear bag as support, and post the average of five, 5-shot groups.

    I took a top ten snippet off the list of "SPR" style gas guns-

    1.Mike_P: Larue Stealth upper .223 Rem 18"/13.2" - Predatobr Black gold trigger + Atlas Bipod + A2 stock - 12x SWFA SS in LT104, 77gr FGMM, Groups 0.597 / 0.345 / 0.249 / 0.248 / 0.265 = avg .340 MOA
    2. dpmmn 16" LaRue PredatAR barrel MBT Trigger 77gr GMM Bushnell 1-6.5x24 .482 .490 .582 .583.457 /.5188" =.4955 MOA
    3.TheKnack: Homebuilt Larue 20" .223- Harris Bipod-Weaver 3x15-ADI 69 grain SMK: .512/.806/.272/.414/.602= avg. .521=.497 MOA
    4. billyhill-, WOA Match upper 1-8" Wylde 223, RRA Lower, Weaver T-36, 21.5 gr Reloder 7 / 52 gr SMK / LC new brass / Rem 71/2, Groups: 0.425/0.515/0.469/0.716/0.801 = .702 /5 = 0.5404/1.047 = 0.516 MOA
    5.Lennyo3034: Home build 223, Krieger 7.7 twist, March F 3-24X42, 77SMK over 8208. Groups: .568"/.526"/.661"/.503"/.581"= .568" average= .542 MOA
    6.Mike_P: Larue Stealth barreled 20" 5.56 upper - Larue MBT Trigger + Atlas Bipod + PRS stock - 12x SWFA SS in LT104, 77gr FGMM, Groups 0.459 / 0.553 / 0.611 / 0.433 / 0.661 = avg .543 MOA
    7. Mike_P: Larue 12" 5.56 Stealth with SilencerCo Specwar K - Bushnell 4.5-18x40 in an LT104, Norma 77gr Match (SMK), Groups 0.521 / 0.884 / 0.314 / 0.560 / 0.510 = avg .5578 MOA
    8. Face454 20" Krieger Barrel home build .223, SWFA 20X scope, reloads: .592, .50, .657, .533, .716. Average MOA = .5727
    9..Jaqufrost: Home build 5.56 - Larue 20" barrel, Larue BCG, Geissele High Speed Match- Bushnell XRS 4.5-30, H-59 reticle - 77gr SMK over 23.5gr Varget. Groups: .568"/.764"/.682"/.577"/.685" = avg. .655" =.585 MOA
    10. sommere54 - SPR with magnified optic, 100 yds - LT 20" barrel, MBT, JP SCS, Burris E1 4.5-14x, - handloads: 69 SMK, 23.4 gr. 8208 XBR - Groups: 0.378" + 0.566" + 0.676" + 0.756" + 0.794" = 3.17" / 5 = 0.634 / 1.047 = 0.606 MOA
    Many may find MOA accuracy to be an unneeded luxury, and for a defense gun it really isn't, but for those that hunt or shoot targets at longer ranges, it is nice to know that when you miss that it was probably your fault, not the gun.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

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