Knife as a SD weapon - aftermath

[voodoo_man]

Most of the LEO uses I know of we're not covered by the news.

Every single situation is completely different with "defensive" use of force, especially deadly force. I know of one particular incident a guy (LE) I train with was in where he took a blade and went ear to ear through the BGs eyes. Of course they were fighting over a pistol and the blade was the only tool he had ability to deploy. No charges not even a raised eyebrow.

It is very rare that a person will use a blade against a person who is not armed. However it is not outside the realm of possibilities.

For LE the blade is a get off me or get off my gun tool most of the time. Especially when considering many cases I've personally seen have a LEO using a blade against the BGs hands which were on his pistol first and then moving on to something more vital, but usually only when that BG doesn't let go of the gun right away

[AlwaysLearning]

A few years ago a Washington state college student used a knife in self defense. He was suspended from school and faced criminal charges. The jury acquitted him and he was eventually reinstated by his college:
http://www.dailyuw.com/news/article_...a42dbb486.html

[HCM]

WV Trooper who used a knife against a suspect trying to drown him:

http://knifenews.com/cop-reaches-for...-for-his-life/

Some background reading:

http://knifenews.com/knife-cops/

[HCM]

Varg Freeborn would be the guy to listen to about this. He's on the Primary and Secondary podcast.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Dismas316]

On Jocko podcast recently, Harley Flanagan talked about his jail time and prosecution in relation to his defense using a knife when jumped by four or so guys and in fear of his life.

I don't know the details of the case, but the aftermath was a pretty big deal.

I guess it's ok for me to derail my own thread but listening to the beginning of this podcast and wow!! Dude Harley Flanagan has a hellava story, interesting. Very long but hope to get through this in the next couple days.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

On Jocko podcast recently, Harley Flanagan talked about his jail time and prosecution in relation to his defense using a knife when jumped by four or so guys and in fear of his life.

I don't know the details of the case, but the aftermath was a pretty big deal.

I can honestly say that I never thought I would see the Cro-Mags fight come up at Pistol-Forum.

[Dismas316]

Varg Freeborn would be the guy to listen to about this. He's on the Primary and Secondary podcast.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Very interesting perspective and background. His story is exactly what my question centers around. Apparently, an obvious situation of self defense with a knife but he still went to prison, but later a judge dismissed his case. Varg has a pretty unique take on a lot of these issues. Certainly can understand given his experience.

[ssb]

I've seen lots of knife assaults in the context of domestic violence, along with other weapons of opportunity. Some people had valid self-defense claims, others did not but attempted to assert it anyway. Regardless of the weapon it's all about articulation: on the scene, in any potential interview (phone a friend...), and later through your attorney. Having said that, domestic violence is a messy context for a would-be defender and probably not as directly relevant.

I've listened to Varg Freeborn's story. The lesson there is: context matters a lot. In broad strokes, my impression is that he was living in a bad lifestyle (not to be confused with criminal) and got lumped in with the trash surrounding him -- by the police, the state, and later the jury. The generalized "don't go stupid places, with stupid people, to do stupid things" advice is applicable here: if you're put in that position, your actions really need to demonstrate that you're a legitimate victim.

ETA: expanding on the Varg Freeborn "lumped in with the trash" line.

You will be categorized and stereotyped -- by the responding and investigating officers, the DA's office, the media, and perhaps others. Police in particular frequently categorize people: citizens, criminals, "one of us" being the three main categories. The DA and the media also have their own respective tropes.

I've been in a traffic stop, as an example. I was armed, presented my permit with my driver's license, answered "yes" to the "do you have it with you now" question, and was ordered out of the vehicle and disarmed. On my person were: a J-Frame, a Clinch Pick, and a speed strip; my pepper spray was visible on the keys (taken out of the ignition and placed on the dash). My demeanor was polite and throughout the encounter, I was cooperative with the disarm, and I made no mention of what I do; I wasn't forthcoming beyond the information needed for the traffic stop (I was on my way to work, didn't have much patience for the task force dude with his interdiction game, didn't consent to a search).

The treatment/attitude I received was along the lines of the "overly-prepared to go to the movies" trope I've read elsewhere. By p-f standards, I was prepared to get kilt on the streets. The officers were particularly curious about the Clinch Pick, and it's been driving some thinking re: converting to a Ka Bar TDI because that's at least something they're probably familiar with (somewhat prevalent with LEOs here).

What if the context wasn't a traffic stop, but a shooting/stabbing/both? How do you think it's going to change if you're plainly doing stupid when the interaction takes place? What about if the impression you give off is that of a criminal (call-back to the "cops tend to categorize people' above)? What image you present will have an effect on your treatment.

I'm not saying to make your decision re: what/if to carry based on "what's a cop/the DA/the media going to think of me," but I am saying that you should consider what overall image you present (to an extent -- I'd avoid carrying shuriken). Most of the time I've dealt with LE while armed, the treatment has been nothing but courteous. That particular day I got treated like a Batman wannabe. Frankly, I think the local media would run with that angle regardless of how I dressed if what I carried became public knowledge after an incident.

Just some considerations/ramblings, take them for what they're worth.

[Caballoflaco]

^^^^

I was known by the police in a small college town in Alabama as "that dude that has a benchmade" after being asked if I had any weapons at a traffic stop. They'd say "hey you're that dude with the benchmade aren't you?" if I ran into them at a gas station or the grocery store. Cheese and rice.... You'd think I pulled the damn thing out of a stone in the forest or something to hear them talking about it.

[MK11]

I was in a defensive folder class along with several LEOs, one of whom said, "If I stop you and I see a rifle in the car, ok, we'll get to that. But seeing a knife makes me want to know why you have it and what you plan to do with it."

Doubly odd to say because an unsecured long gun in a vehicle is illegal in this state, while a folder or fixed blade four inches or under is fine to carry.