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Thread: 9mm JSP - what's its purpose?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter farscott's Avatar
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    Hirtenberger used to (and might today) offer a 9x19 100-grain JSP at 1300 fps. Stuff did not expand much at all, and it zipped through stuff. Except glass and car doors. I remember it being demo'd in a class and remember being totally underwhelmed by it.

  2. #12

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfoosh006 View Post
    Used to shoot straight down into a 60-gal chemical drum full of water to get expanded JHPs to put on the counter at the first gun shop I worked at back in the '90s. (Customers would steal the Black Talons.) Water should give glamor-shot perfect expansion. The cores of those bullets he shot show every sign of having impacted the bottom of the drum...penetrating four feet of water...with enough impact to deform the nose of the projectile. The only JHP's I ever fired that did that were IMI .50AE and a 240gr .44 Mag Hydra-Shok fired out of a 16" carbine. I note they shed the jacket exactly as @Wayne Dobbs said they would.
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  4. #14
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I'm under the impression that pistol caliber JSPs don't really expand, they just deform a bit. I guess I'd be inclined to believe what people are saying that it was an ineffective solution back in the old days before terminal ballistics was studied critically.



    Anyone who isn't active LE cannot carry a gun outside the home with JHPs. The NJSP/NJ AG do not consider polymer tipped rounds like the Hornady CD, Federal Guard Dog or Gold Dot G2 to be JHPs, and I know of at least 1 private security company that has switched their armed guards over to them.

    This "ban" does not apply to buying, owning, shooting, transporting or hunting with JHPs.
    TGS, have you seen any paper on GD2 being approved by the NJSP or AG's office. When I last talked to my FFL who is Ex LEO and well connected to the NJSP Firearms unit nothing official had been handed out with regards to GD2, which is why we went Hornady CD. He was still entering GD2 on his Hollow Point Log, something that was no longer required for Hornady CD, Federal EFMJ or Corbon Power Ball. Now I know it would make logical sense that GD2 would fall in the same category as the rest BUT this is NJ and logic doesn't work here all the time. Until I heard it officially from the NJSP or saw paper on it I wouldn't use GD2. Why risk it? While we are too small to do any significant ballistic testing I can tell you that the 9mm 135 grain plus p Critical Defense has been super accurate out of our M&P's @ 25 yards. I will touch base with my FLL and see if there has been any movement on the GD2 front.

    If memory serves me right the ILSP used the 95 grain JSP ammo in their S&W 59's waaaay back when, late 60's through the 70's. From what I recall they were not happy, having had several spectacular failures with that round. Again if I recall correctly the problem was lack of penetration. Also ammo quality control could have been a factor as well.

    With regards to JSP's in general... At one time we carried the old 38spl 158 SWC Nyclads. These rounds were dead soft lead with a nylon jacket to limit lead exposure on the range. Some of the first lead free rounds if you will. When fired into fence posts they no longer looked like a SWC but there was little to no expansion. For the last 25 years we have carried 125 SJP in our revolvers. I do not expect them to expand on impact. What I am looking for is a reduction in the potential for ricochet should my personnel miss or the round over penetrate. That is the only benefit I see over a FMJ round. That and I don't have to worry about leading fouling the gun during a fight, something us revolver shooters need to consider even if it is a small consideration.
    Last edited by rsa-otc; 05-18-2017 at 06:40 PM.
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  5. #15
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsa-otc View Post
    TGS, have you seen any paper on GD2 being approved by the NJSP or AG's office. When I last talked to my FFL who is Ex LEO and well connected to the NJSP Firearms unit nothing official had been handed out with regards to GD2, which is why we went Hornady CD. He was still entering GD2 on his Hollow Point Log, something that was no longer required for Hornady CD, Federal EFMJ or Corbon Power Ball. Now I know it would make logical sense that GD2 would fall in the same category as the rest BUT this is NJ and logic doesn't work here all the time. Until I heard it officially from the NJSP or saw paper on it I wouldn't use GD2. Why risk it? While we are too small to do any significant ballistic testing I can tell you that the 9mm 135 grain plus p Critical Defense has been super accurate out of our M&P's @ 25 yards. I will touch base with my FLL and see if there has been any movement on the GD2 front.

    If memory serves me right the ILSP used the 95 grain JSP ammo in their S&W 59's waaaay back when, late 60's through the 70's. From what I recall they were not happy, having had several spectacular failures with that round. Again if I recall correctly the problem was lack of penetration. Also ammo quality control could have been a factor as well.

    With regards to JSP's in general... At one time we carried the old 38spl 158 SWC Nyclads. These rounds were dead soft lead with a nylon jacket to limit lead exposure on the range. Some of the first lead free rounds if you will. When fired into fence posts they no longer looked like a SWC but there was little to no expansion. For the last 25 years we have carried 125 SJP in our revolvers. I do not expect them to expand on impact. What I am looking for is a reduction in the potential for ricochet should my personnel miss or the round over penetrate. That is the only benefit I see over a FMJ round. That and I don't have to worry about leading fouling the gun during a fight, something us revolver shooters need to consider even if it is a small consideration.
    Negative sir. I don't remember the list specifically, just that it included a few "hollow-points" based on the polymer filling. I haven't kept up with it.
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  6. #16
    [QUOTE=Tamara;605352]Used to shoot straight down into a 60


    Exact answer didn't have time to type ! Tank you.... ( pun intended )

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    Wonderful. I guess I'll have to remove my HSTs and load CD in my G26 while visiting family in NJ for a day or two this summer. What nonsense.

    Or, I guess I could test my FEDS policy:
    Read the NJ rules very carefully before you go. New Jersey courts take the position that the federal Constitution pretty much doesn't apply once you cross the Delaware from Philly when it comes to gun issues, and more than a few retired LEOs have had a problem with concealed carry--which in practice is all but illegal in NJ.

  8. #18
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeep View Post
    Read the NJ rules very carefully before you go. New Jersey courts take the position that the federal Constitution pretty much doesn't apply once you cross the Delaware from Philly when it comes to gun issues, and more than a few retired LEOs have had a problem with concealed carry--which in practice is all but illegal in NJ.
    When I still worked out of the federal building in NYC during the 80's the stories about the lack of reciprocity and fraternity between the NJSP and the NYC locals and feds were legendary. Some guys had even been in fistfights. I personally never had any issues when I had to work on that side of the Hudson but I'm always on the lookout.

    Thanks, Jeep. Trust me, I'll be on the lookout. I have a federal PLI policy that covers exactly the issues involved, and they are well aware that NJ's stand on the ammo would violate LEOSA.
    Last edited by blues; 05-25-2017 at 07:10 PM.
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  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    When I still worked out of the federal building in NYC during the 80's the stories about the lack of reciprocity and fraternity between the NJSP and the NYC locals and feds were legendary. Some guys had even been in fistfights. I personally never had any issues when I had to work on that side of the Hudson but I'm always on the lookout.

    Thanks, Jeep. Trust me, I'll be on the lookout. I have a federal PLI policy that covers exactly the issues involved, and they are well aware that NJ's stand on the ammo would violate LEOSA.
    Most NJ cops I've met were decent guys, but many work for anti-gun maniacs and NJ gun laws are (deliberately) confusing and crazy. For example if you transport a gun from point A to point B it probably needs to be in a locked container, without ammo in it, in the trunk of your car, and if you stop to eat you might be violating the law because you are required to make no stops. (Getting gas might be ok. It might not. You get to find out from a judge or jury). LEOSA legally overrides such things, but local Jersey judges might not recognize the LEOSA, and from what I can tell, the legislature wants it that way.

  10. #20
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeep View Post
    Most NJ cops I've met were decent guys, but many work for anti-gun maniacs and NJ gun laws are (deliberately) confusing and crazy. For example if you transport a gun from point A to point B it probably needs to be in a locked container, without ammo in it, in the trunk of your car, and if you stop to eat you might be violating the law because you are required to make no stops. (Getting gas might be ok. It might not. You get to find out from a judge or jury). LEOSA legally overrides such things, but local Jersey judges might not recognize the LEOSA, and from what I can tell, the legislature wants it that way.
    I hear you, brother. Much as it might cause me grief, I'm not inclined to give up my rights to satisfy their fear mongering methods. Last I recall, I served my country honorably through my years of federal service and I'm not about to lay down for them or any other authority when I'm within my rights.

    That said, I very much appreciate your taking the time to contact me regarding this.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

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