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Thread: 10mm 200gr Hardcast Load

  1. #51
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    While it is possible you have found the cure, my experience over many 20/29 pistols and many other platforms, is that wide meat hard cast loads are not reliable in service pistols. Sometimes I have learned that in a few magazines, and sometimes that realization only came after believing my hard cast load was reliable and carrying it a few months.
    I'm still a little worried about that too. I'll run at least a few more mags before carrying it for sure.

    It's encouraging that the FTF malfunctions and dented bullets do not seem to occur with the 460R extra power mag springs. As well, I can reproduce the same malfunctions with very heavy XTP and HAP loads. So, it's tempting to conclude that the standard magazine spring can't keep up with the slide velocity of heavy loads.

    Another experiment would be to try low power wide meplat loads with standard springs.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 04-20-2019 at 07:10 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  2. #52
    If nothing else, those rounds sure look awesome

  3. #53
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I have a HPG Kit bag for backcountry carry. For other use, a JMCK AIWB 2.5 is on order.

    Now, I'll load up some more of my hard cast Bearkiller loads and call this project complete.
    To be fair, if you're using a hpg bag or carrying AIWB then you shouldn't be to concerned with dust putting a Smith down.

    Even when open carrying a Smith I've spend days in rain, a few submerges, sleeping under the stars, working on beaches where sand somehow found its way into my exposed, open holster, etc I haven't had a problem.

    Totally different world then my EDC sitting aiwb, or in a zipped up chest rig so you would be fine.

    If you want the auto for the commonality, high capacity, etc then I think those are valid enough reason. The clockwork inside smiths have proved to be rugged enough for defensive use.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    50 more test rounds of 200 hard cast using the 460R mag mods. No problems. Good groups. Not much fun to shoot.

    I also tested very heavy loads using 180 Hornady HAP, a JHP with similar profile to XTP. This load is 10.0gr of 800X at 1300fps. Very stout! Interestingly, I had FTF malfunctions with a regular magazine, just like with the hard cast bullets. When I used the mag with the heavy mag spring and shims, I shot 54 rounds without issue.

    This suggests that the FTF issues are mag spring related, not bullet profile related. Paging @GJM and @cheby.
    To quote 'The Glocksmith' T.R. Graham... "The magazine is the heart of any semiautomatic pistol, without a good magazine... you've got an expensive single-shot". Should be the first place to look at with any problematic gun, though this may be obvious to some here.

  5. #55
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Results of more testing:

    42 more trouble-free rounds of Beartooth 200gr lead hard cast over 9.0gr 800X, using 460 Rowland mag spring and shims. These loads chronoed at 1189fps (sd=6; n=14).

    Below is a 10 round 20yd group. The two sub-groups are due to me re-adjusting my grip from the very stout recoil. In any case, this is a very accurate load.
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    I also tested the new Federal HST 200gr HST (P10HST1S) in standard mags. As expected, they fed flawlessly, including SHO and WHO with a purposely weak grip. Chrono: 1078fps (sd=6; n=16). It's great to see Federal producing a full power 200gr 10mm load, instead of the 900fps 180gr loads of the past. Recoil of the P10HST1S in my G20 was comparable to a .40 cal Glock--heavier than a 9mm, but nowhere close to the recoil from my nuclear hard cast loads.

    I will be carrying these loads in Alaska soon. Intel on the ground is that this will be an active bear year. I hope we can observe these beautiful creatures safely at a distance, and avoid trouble.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 04-30-2019 at 03:11 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  6. #56
    Been reading this post with interest; indeed it inspired me to join the forum to share my 2 cents. I've have a lot of run ins with grizzlies over the years in Alaska, Wyoming, and Montana, but to be clear, unlike many of my friends in Alaska, I've never shot a grizzly (though I've killed plenty of black bears).

    The last run in I had was with a 600 lb interior grizzly off the Denali Highway. Strong wind, blowing directly toward me, dense brush, and relatively quiet walking. Spray would have been useless...wind was coming off a glacier at maybe 20 mph. Bear and I were coming from opposite directions on the same trail and when he appeared he was about 40 yards away.

    On that day, and during all the run ins I've had, I was carrying a 44 magnum (that day it was a cut-down Super Red Hawk) loaded with some manner of 300gr hardcast loads.

    All the other grizzlies I've run into took off running, or hung around maybe a minute to collect their cubs, and then disappeared. This encounter lasted maybe ten minutes, which was a lot of time to keep my butt clenched.

    It was abundantly clear that with my hard kicking 44 mag, I was only going to get one shot. Maybe a second shot, as the bear was chewing on my foot. I felt confident in my shooting ability...I'd put those loads into an inch at 25 yards, many, many times. But I was not confident that I would be able to hit a running bear in the brainpan or neck with my first shot. Unfortunately the bear got a vote on that.

    After that, I switched to a Glock 20. But even after shooting hot 10mm loads against my shot timer, I wasn't satisfied. My split times still felt a lot slower than what I felt I needed.

    So I switched again, to the same 10mm 200gr hardcast bullet at 950 or 1000 fps. I could have downloaded my 10mm, but I decided to hit the easy button and just run those bullets out of my G22. Underwood and Buffalo Bore both have a 40 SW loading like this.

    My belief is that 10mm bullets at 950-1000 fps will still penetrate several feet of bear, and still get into the skullbox with similar reliability.

    But measured against a shot timer, I can get hits twice as fast with those bullets at 950 fps vs 1200 fps. And four times as fast as I could get hits with a 300gr-325gr 44 mag or 454 load.

    Anyway, that's where I ended up. Thanks for the great info in this thread.

  7. #57
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTX44 View Post
    Been reading this post with interest; indeed it inspired me to join the forum to share my 2 cents. I've have a lot of run ins with grizzlies over the years in Alaska, Wyoming, and Montana, but to be clear, unlike many of my friends in Alaska, I've never shot a grizzly (though I've killed plenty of black bears).

    The last run in I had was with a 600 lb interior grizzly off the Denali Highway. Strong wind, blowing directly toward me, dense brush, and relatively quiet walking. Spray would have been useless...wind was coming off a glacier at maybe 20 mph. Bear and I were coming from opposite directions on the same trail and when he appeared he was about 40 yards away.

    On that day, and during all the run ins I've had, I was carrying a 44 magnum (that day it was a cut-down Super Red Hawk) loaded with some manner of 300gr hardcast loads.

    All the other grizzlies I've run into took off running, or hung around maybe a minute to collect their cubs, and then disappeared. This encounter lasted maybe ten minutes, which was a lot of time to keep my butt clenched.

    It was abundantly clear that with my hard kicking 44 mag, I was only going to get one shot. Maybe a second shot, as the bear was chewing on my foot. I felt confident in my shooting ability...I'd put those loads into an inch at 25 yards, many, many times. But I was not confident that I would be able to hit a running bear in the brainpan or neck with my first shot. Unfortunately the bear got a vote on that.

    After that, I switched to a Glock 20. But even after shooting hot 10mm loads against my shot timer, I wasn't satisfied. My split times still felt a lot slower than what I felt I needed.

    So I switched again, to the same 10mm 200gr hardcast bullet at 950 or 1000 fps. I could have downloaded my 10mm, but I decided to hit the easy button and just run those bullets out of my G22. Underwood and Buffalo Bore both have a 40 SW loading like this.

    My belief is that 10mm bullets at 950-1000 fps will still penetrate several feet of bear, and still get into the skullbox with similar reliability.

    But measured against a shot timer, I can get hits twice as fast with those bullets at 950 fps vs 1200 fps. And four times as fast as I could get hits with a 300gr-325gr 44 mag or 454 load.

    Anyway, that's where I ended up. Thanks for the great info in this thread.
    I may not be following. Did you find your first shot was significantly slower with the first shot from a revolver?

  8. #58
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting. If you have time, can you describe your grizzly encounter in more detail?

    Your reasoning about the trade-offs between recoil and terminal ballistics makes sense, and it's great that you have measured your performance with the different options. What were your splits with the different loads?

    I considered carrying 9mm with Lehigh XP because of the advantage in capacity and shootability. However, because grizzlies are fucking terrifying I decided to go with the heavy, fast 10mm load that could (in theory) be effective for a shoulder hit if I missed a head shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by CTX44 View Post
    Been reading this post with interest; indeed it inspired me to join the forum to share my 2 cents. I've have a lot of run ins with grizzlies over the years in Alaska, Wyoming, and Montana, but to be clear, unlike many of my friends in Alaska, I've never shot a grizzly (though I've killed plenty of black bears).

    The last run in I had was with a 600 lb interior grizzly off the Denali Highway. Strong wind, blowing directly toward me, dense brush, and relatively quiet walking. Spray would have been useless...wind was coming off a glacier at maybe 20 mph. Bear and I were coming from opposite directions on the same trail and when he appeared he was about 40 yards away.

    On that day, and during all the run ins I've had, I was carrying a 44 magnum (that day it was a cut-down Super Red Hawk) loaded with some manner of 300gr hardcast loads.

    All the other grizzlies I've run into took off running, or hung around maybe a minute to collect their cubs, and then disappeared. This encounter lasted maybe ten minutes, which was a lot of time to keep my butt clenched.

    It was abundantly clear that with my hard kicking 44 mag, I was only going to get one shot. Maybe a second shot, as the bear was chewing on my foot. I felt confident in my shooting ability...I'd put those loads into an inch at 25 yards, many, many times. But I was not confident that I would be able to hit a running bear in the brainpan or neck with my first shot. Unfortunately the bear got a vote on that.

    After that, I switched to a Glock 20. But even after shooting hot 10mm loads against my shot timer, I wasn't satisfied. My split times still felt a lot slower than what I felt I needed.

    So I switched again, to the same 10mm 200gr hardcast bullet at 950 or 1000 fps. I could have downloaded my 10mm, but I decided to hit the easy button and just run those bullets out of my G22. Underwood and Buffalo Bore both have a 40 SW loading like this.

    My belief is that 10mm bullets at 950-1000 fps will still penetrate several feet of bear, and still get into the skullbox with similar reliability.

    But measured against a shot timer, I can get hits twice as fast with those bullets at 950 fps vs 1200 fps. And four times as fast as I could get hits with a 300gr-325gr 44 mag or 454 load.

    Anyway, that's where I ended up. Thanks for the great info in this thread.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  9. #59
    @CTX44 brings up a good point. People tend to think that a bullet needs to be pushed as fast a possible in order to get as much penetration as they can. In doing so they sacrifice reliability and controllability.

    BTW welcome to the forum.
    We could isolate Russia totally from the world and maybe they could apply for membership after 2000 years.

  10. #60
    A few thoughts.

    1) I carried Underwood .40 for most of a summer in AK, for similar reasoning, until I realized the load was not reliable in my OEM or KKM barrels when shot from compromised positions with partially filled magazines.

    2) if a body shot dissuades a bear, great, but I wouldn’t count on breaking a bear down with shoulder shots with a semi auto 10/40, like you would with a heavy rifle or Brenneke slugs. The brain is the only high probability quick way to incapacitate a bear with a service pistol.

    3) I value reliability over bullet performance, and the Lehigh penetrator is the sweet spot for my use in a service pistol. I carry hard cast in my revolvers.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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