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Thread: Mike Lamb of Stoic Ventures. Outed as not being a Recon Marine.

  1. #41
    Member Sparks2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Otherwise you wind up with radio hosts teaching gunfighting classes.
    Are the Greshams teaching gunfighting classes?
    Last edited by Sparks2112; 05-04-2017 at 09:27 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparks2112 View Post
    Are the Gresham's teaching gunfighting classes?

  3. #43
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    IMO you need three things to be able to teach effectively:
    1) Real world experience in the subject matter
    2) the ability to effectively teach
    3) the genuine desire to see your students improve

    While #1 alone isn't enough, you can't just have 2 & 3 (and a bunch of classes) and think that you're good to go. Otherwise you wind up with radio hosts teaching gunfighting classes.
    I would argue that #1 is the least important or at least that students put too much misdirected emphasis on this, which is in part why we are all here discussing the issue of stolen valor in training. Instructors don't need to be honest to God gunslingers to teach the average dood how to defend themselves with a firearm. Many such gunfight survivors (especially military) won the fight out of 1) overwhelming firepower and tactical advantage or 2) luck of the draw. I don't recall TLG ever putting bad guys in the dirt, yet few here would doubt his credentials.

    Theoretical training while far from perfect has proven to be adequate time and time again. The US Armored steamrolling of Iraqi forces in Desert Storm was accomplished by soldiers trained by others who had never been in a tank battle in their lives.

    I have no problem taking a course from a guy who has never seen the Elephant but has the ability to teach effectively and a true desire to learn AND teaches a vetted and sound curriculum.

  4. #44

  5. #45
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    I would argue that #1 is the least important or at least that students put too much misdirected emphasis on this, which is in part why we are all here discussing the issue of stolen valor in training. Instructors don't need to be honest to God gunslingers to teach the average dood how to defend themselves with a firearm. Many such gunfight survivors (especially military) won the fight out of 1) overwhelming firepower and tactical advantage or 2) luck of the draw. I don't recall TLG ever putting bad guys in the dirt, yet few here would doubt his credentials.

    Theoretical training while far from perfect has proven to be adequate time and time again. The US Armored steamrolling of Iraqi forces in Desert Storm was accomplished by soldiers trained by others who had never been in a tank battle in their lives.

    I have no problem taking a course from a guy who has never seen the Elephant but has the ability to teach effectively and a true desire to learn AND teaches a vetted and sound curriculum.
    At least in the courses I took from him, he wasn't teaching tactics or self-defense. He generally was teaching the mechanical aspect of shooting, whether you applied those mechanics to competition, hobbyism, or self-defense was up to you. Rob's point #1 wasn't that someone has to have experience in mil/LE, but that they should have experience in the subject matter being taught.

    Thus, Todd had tons of real-world experience in the given subject matter, and is definitely something that contributed to his success in teaching people.

    If he tried teaching vehicle counter-ambush, vehicle approach tactics, limited penetration 1-2 man structure tactics or dynamic entry.....things would have been very different.
    Last edited by TGS; 05-04-2017 at 09:56 AM.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  6. #46
    Smoke Bomb / Ninja Vanish Chance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    I'm not making apologies for the man nor wishing to dampen any torches as we grab our pitchforks, just wondering out loud how we can promote those with good instructing skills to the masses instead of promoting the idea that everyone with a CCL needs to be a snake eater.
    I'm not even sure that's possible. My first class was with Travis Haley, and you can see by the AAR I wrote about it afterwards that I thought it was great. Looking back... ugh. I only learned the hard way, and I think that's necessarily the case. I was lucky enough to both, a) know how to do research, and b) stumble upon Pistol-Forum, or I'd still be an Instagram commando.

    And I think it's up to instructors to also do self-promotion. I know we often compound self-promotion with having an ego and liking attention (and it often is because they have an ego and like attention), but people have got to do self-promotion somehow. I love Paul Howe (I'm actually training with him again this weekend, which is my fourth trip to CSAT), but so few people know him because he doesn't do much to put his name out there. I think it's a similar thing with Mike Pannone, Ernest Langdon, and a lot of other stellar trainers: they could be a big deal if they wanted to, they just don't want to.

    In the mean time, the guys with big egos, slim credentials, huge social media followings, and are James Yeager are the ones training the masses. I think that's just how it is.
    "Sapiens dicit: 'Ignoscere divinum est, sed noli pretium plenum pro pizza sero allata solvere.'" - Michelangelo

  7. #47
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    I would argue that #1 is the least important or at least that students put too much misdirected emphasis on this, which is in part why we are all here discussing the issue of stolen valor in training. Instructors don't need to be honest to God gunslingers to teach the average dood how to defend themselves with a firearm. Many such gunfight survivors (especially military) won the fight out of 1) overwhelming firepower and tactical advantage or 2) luck of the draw. I don't recall TLG ever putting bad guys in the dirt, yet few here would doubt his credentials.

    Theoretical training while far from perfect has proven to be adequate time and time again. The US Armored steamrolling of Iraqi forces in Desert Storm was accomplished by soldiers trained by others who had never been in a tank battle in their lives.

    I have no problem taking a course from a guy who has never seen the Elephant but has the ability to teach effectively and a true desire to learn AND teaches a vetted and sound curriculum.
    It helps that theoretical training is most often applied to theoretical gunfights.

  8. #48
    It is important also to consider how the instructor's experience influences their teaching. I have taken a number of courses from instructors that have been involved in A gunfight or shooting. Often enough their program had a strong focus on the challenges of that one shooting incident they were involved in. They had a lot of longer distance drills or hostage scenario drills etc if their shooting had a longer distance shot or hostage situation shot. This can be limiting and less of a beneficial experience if it is too narrow in scope or too far removed from the student's needs. I took a course with Jim Cirillo who had been in multiple shootings and gunfights and it was obvious the experience and broadness of experience was beneficial rather then just 1 or 2 incidents. The fact that he was a LEO, hunter,firearms instructor for NYPD and FLETC just added to his diverse background. I am taking a class with Robert Vogel in 2 weeks and hope to get better gun handling/shooting skills out of not necessarily LEO tactics and techniques even though he is/was a full and part time LEO. Some instructors sell themselves outside their base of knowledge and experience. Some also try and do too much in one class or too short of a class to properly cover topics well enough.

  9. #49
    Member Sparks2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    It helps that theoretical training is most often applied to theoretical gunfights.
    My ideal Citizen context 16 hour "self-defense" class would have 4 hours of UoF law, 4 hours of Craig's MUC, 4 hours of Aprill's VCA go/no-go selection material, 2 hours of Chuck's OC material, and 2 hours of Caleb's medical stuff.

    "Gunfighting" for private citizens, is stupid, and ignores reality.
    J.M. Johnston
    Host of Ballistic Radio - Sundays at 7:00 PM EST on Cincinnati's 55KRC THE Talk Station, available on iHeartRadio

  10. #50
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    Soooo...what I'm getting from this thread is that Bas Rutten would never survive a street fight because he never trained with a street fighter?

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